Chapter Blue
Tyra Valeriano, host of Chapter Blue, comes with 11 years of law enforcement experience and talks about mental health, self-care, work-life balance and more. Through honest conversations and personal experience, Chapter Blue allows for officers worldwide to share their stories, struggles, and successes both on and off duty and to give the public an insight to what the media has made into such a controversial profession. The podcast will establish the connection to the important topics and struggles in law enforcement and open up to all first responder roles in the new year to address how interchangeable the roles relate to the struggle. Join the conversation, because it’s long overdue!
Chapter Blue
Behind and Beyond the Badge: Anthony Shefferly's Journey
Understanding the unseen struggles of police officers, such as fitness and mental health challenges, is essential for improving officer wellbeing. Anthony shares essential insights on realistic expectations, the impact of stress, and the necessity for proactive health measures within law enforcement. Anthony comes with a Master's Degree in Psychology, 18 years of law enforcement experiences, and a long history of fitness to include previous ownership of a CrossFit gym.
• Discussion on the importance of fitness for law enforcement officers
• Insights into mental health challenges faced by cops
• The gap between expectations and reality for recruits
• Staffing shortages and their implications for policing
• The need for mandatory health checks in law enforcement
• Tips for stress management and coping strategies for officers
• Acknowledgement of the culture shift needed in law enforcement
• Advice for rookie officers based on lived experiences
Point of Contact:
Instagram @Anthony_heroicindustries
Instagram @heroicindustries
Website: www.skool.com/heroic-industries/about
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Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where we discuss the world of law enforcement through an honest conversation on tough or controversial topics, real stories, perspectives and experience from officers all around the world. Whether you're here for insights on mental health, self-care, work-life balance, getting into law enforcement, getting out of law enforcement, or just trying to learn about personal and professional challenges officers face every day, you've come to the right place. I'm your host, tyra Valeriano, and whether I'm going solo or speaking with a guest, each episode will discuss different aspects of life behind the badge. Let's turn the page and step into Chapter Blue. Hi Anthony, thank you for joining me all the way from Indiana. If you would tell us a little more about your background in law enforcement and what encouraged you to be a guest today on Chapter Blue?
Anthony Shefferly:but for 17 years going on eight this is my 18th year. I've been on a lot. I've done a lot of different stuff on the job. I did undercover narcotics for a couple of years, uniform detective in our gang of violent crimes unit for five or six years a lot of time on uniform patrol and then I've been and I've been on our SWAT team for 14 years now 13, 14 years, something like that so a lot of experience. On top of that, I've run businesses. I had a CrossFit gym that I ran for about eight years until I sold it a couple years ago. I do a lot of fitness training with law enforcement and other populations as well. I've got a background in strength and conditioning and psychology and, yeah, I just thought that this would be a great opportunity to actually do. What we just talked about off air was like talking about real issues in law enforcement and not kind of the PC issues that we hear about in like in service and from our departments and agencies and that kind of stuff.
Tyra Valeriano:So I'm actually really glad that you brought up fitness, because I think that's a huge issue in law enforcement. I'm sure you could agree and I do want to get into that. And there's it also kind of leads into the mental wellness factor too. You have an education in psychology, which I think is very interesting. I do want to ask you how are you able to manage all of that and your business as a police officer? How was that?
Anthony Shefferly:It's busy, but I mean it's really not any different from what we all do.
Anthony Shefferly:Like there aren't many people on the job that just work the job and then, just unless they're married to, like a rich spouse or something like that like, or have money from like something else. Like, most of us have to go to work and we have to work part-times, we have to work extra details, we have to work security to make ends meet. We just don't make that much money and uh, uh, you know some of some of it's bad budgetary stuff, because cops are really bad at budgets too. But, uh, but really it's like all right, I'm going to work extra anyway. Do I want to do the same thing that I do all day long and stay in a uniform and grind myself down and work?
Anthony Shefferly:You know details of bars and parking lots, and like, no, I don't. I would much rather learn another skillset, develop that for other, for other people on the job, you know, and and take advantage of it that way. So that that's why I did that. So is it. It's busy, but at the same time, it's going to be. It's going to be busy anyway. So, like, just pick your poison, I guess.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, I'm sure just having extra time keeps you. At least you're staying healthy on your off time, where many of us would probably be drinking beer or doing something worse with our time.
Anthony Shefferly:I mean you could make an argument that the stress that comes with all the other business stuff is probably like is that on par? Probably not, but you know. But yeah, it definitely like the. You know what's the, what's the phrase? Idle hands are devil's playground, right. So, like, if you provide yourself with like dead time to do nothing, like I learned that right away in like high school. It's like in between sports seasons. You're like how do how does this? Like, how do people deal with all this time? Like, what do they do? That's when you make mistakes is when you don't have a plan.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, I agree, I want to jump into your education, so your background in psychology. I'm curious what your or what you've observed to be the biggest challenges that officers face when it comes to mental health, and what kind of strategies have you maybe used for yourself or suggested to other officers?
Anthony Shefferly:That is a hard question to answer. The biggest issue with mental health. It's usually a framing issue. It's like what do you expect from the job and does it match what you actually experienced? So that's a lot of times when, in general, like what kind of screws people up is? Like they have an expectation and a frame right and it's like this is what it's going to be like. And then when you actually go do the thing, whatever that is, it doesn't match it, and so it's real hard to like make peace with the fact like this is not what I thought it was.
Anthony Shefferly:And then on a job like law enforcement, where, like this isn't what I thought it was, and I have to deal with all this like high stress, high pressure, decision-making, uh, you know, like seeing net the nastiest stuff that life has to offer all the time.
Anthony Shefferly:Um, if those things, if you can't reconcile those things, it can cause a lot of stress coming to work.
Anthony Shefferly:And then when you pair that with I also didn't expect like all the like the political infighting that happens on the job a lot of times too, and it's like, man, this is really like not what I thought it was going to be at all and it's really not what was kind of sold to me in the academy and then anymore a lot of times at least what I thought it was going to be at all. Um, and it's really not what was kind of sold to me in the Academy, um, and then anymore a lot of times at least. What I've seen in the last 17 years is is police like recruiting is shifting and they paint a picture that isn't what the job is and it's like people think it's all going to be uh, like meet and greets and and, uh and and you know everybody loves each other and we're gonna high five cops and it's like, unless you're a PIO or an SRO or some position where you can be more of a social figure, that's not gonna be your life here, right?
Anthony Shefferly:This is not gonna be how it goes, and if you're expecting that and then you get met with a bunch of shit, that is not that right. It ain't gonna go well, you know.
Tyra Valeriano:So how is staffing in Indiana right now? I mean, are you guys pretty short staffed? What's it like over there for you guys?
Anthony Shefferly:I mean, I think everybody's short staffed and it doesn't matter how well staffed you are, like you're always going to be at like minimum counts, especially for the road, like like that's always going to be the case. But as far as recruiting goes, like our recruiting numbers are abysmal. They're terrible. Like, just to put it in context, like you know I'm I work in a 500, 500 man department and when I was applying in like 2005, 2007, right, we were getting 2000, 3000 applications for you know, 20, 30 spots and now the same size class, we're getting two, 300. I mean, it's really bad and you can make the argument that it's the way that we recruit is very old, that people don't use the internet really to like market, which is insane to me, but also like just the climate of nobody wants to do this job and going back to pay, like we don't really get paid that much. So what's the benefit here? There's no upside to it, you know.
Tyra Valeriano:I'm going to say that I'm not trying to disagree with you, but I've been on the aspect of working for an agency who pays very well and it's funny because even with good pay, you know the officers are still not happy. Eventually that gets old and you ask for more money. You get more money, you're happy for a little bit and then it just goes right back to where it's at and it's just a repetitive cycle. It doesn't really fix anything. But I will say that the recruiting part is part of the reason why I think this podcast is important for people who want to join law enforcement is because I want people to know what I didn't know.
Tyra Valeriano:When I got in I thought, hey, I can be a mom, single mom, with my two kids, I'm going to be a role model and this is going to be great. And that is not what it is. It's completely just a facade and it's not that easy. You know I'm not saying that it can't be done, but there is rose colored glasses on the profession and there are a lot of things that I know. We don't like to talk negative about the job because we love it, but there's a reality that nobody's talking about and right now the generation that's coming into law enforcement.
Tyra Valeriano:I think that they just don't put up with shit, like they don't want to put up with it. You know they're just like hey, you know what, this isn't for me, this isn't what they told me. I'm out Like I just, I just don't care, and that's what we're dealing with Now. We're dealing with people that don't want to put up with it. So if you're not honest from the beginning and you tell them what to expect, they might stick around and be like okay, well, at least I know. What. Do you think about that?
Anthony Shefferly:I think that that goes back to that framing aspect and I think that's a hundred percent accurate. So, like just framing aspect, and I think that's a hundred percent accurate. So like just just touching on the money, the money issue, you're totally right. Like culture is is more important than money. As far as like recruiting goes Right, that that is for sure. If you set a culture where you're telling the truth and you're showing people what the job is and and everybody's on board for the mission, like you'll get people. But the the issue with the money is like if I have like, let's say, like I had to rewind Right, I got a master's in psychology, I can absolutely my earning potential going in another route is much, much higher, right, so like you have to make sure that the earning potential is on par with private sector work. That's number one, otherwise you just won't be in the conversation. So you've got to be in the conversation. But as far as um framing things in in rose colored glasses, like yeah, that that happens, especially with recruiting um, so I think it's really just like, are you on board for the mission? You know like here's the mission and then here's the reality of it too, cause, like you shouldn't get into this profession thinking that you're not going to have stress and tragedy, like you're getting into it because of the stress and tragedy.
Anthony Shefferly:Honestly, same thing with with, like emergency room nursing and stuff like that.
Anthony Shefferly:Like you don't get into it to hope that every day is clean, right, you want to get dirty.
Anthony Shefferly:And if you don't know that and accept that, like you're doing it for the bad stuff, to experience the bad stuff, so that then you can go home and you can see your kids and see your spouse and see the people that you love and you can experience the good, the good side of things in a way that you couldn't if you didn't see the death and destruction that life has to offer.
Anthony Shefferly:So if you frame it in that context and you expect it to happen, it's not an if it happens, it's a when. It's a when somebody's going to try to shoot me, when somebody is going to commit suicide in front of me, when I'm going to have to pull a trigger on somebody. Those things are going to happen or you're going to see them like face to face. It's going to happen, right, if you frame it that way and then you know that on the back end you're going to be able to like live in both worlds. Then it becomes a really really cool thing, very cool Like. Very few people experience that. But if you don't understand the dichotomy and how to balance that, it can wreck you.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, I agree with that. When did you get your master's in psychology? Were you already a police officer at that time?
Anthony Shefferly:Yeah, so I actually timed it up. So I graduated with my master's and then went right into the academy.
Tyra Valeriano:Okay, so you kind of already had a good head on your shoulders and you already knew some of the aspects that most people don't know. Know because you have kids going into the academy 20 years old and they have no idea about even life in general. So you kind of had a head start, would you say? That's fair.
Anthony Shefferly:I would say that my education head start was yes, but I graduated with my master's at like 25, 26, got into the academy about the same age and, like you just said, you got 20-year-old kids. I graduated college, got my master's. I had some decent life experience because I didn't get hired right away. I had to grind, I had to apply for like that was post 9-11. So everybody wanted to be a cop, right. That's why we had so many people still um, so it wasn't easy getting hired. But uh, but yes, but I was still really young when I got hired. So like I stepped in, uh, tons of piles of shit along the way, you know. So it's not like like you have to learn that stuff and having the education behind it helps you put context with it. It but yeah, you got to learn life as you go.
Tyra Valeriano:You know there's a lot of officers that deals with trauma different. I haven't ever been one to see something very traumatic and then go home and have nightmares about it, and I know that there's people who do have traumatic experiences like that. Because of your experience in general being a police officer and your education, have you been able to deal with things that are traumatic on your own and figure out how to work through them, just because of the knowledge that you had from your education.
Anthony Shefferly:Yeah, it definitely helps you understand the mechanism, right? So it's like it's just like getting injured at the gym, right? Let's say I go and I'm doing bench press and I blow a pack. I'm like, all right, well, why did this happen? So that I don't do it again? So you give it time to recover, you figure out why you did it, and then, and then what, what the mechanism is, so you don't do it again, right? So like, oh, I need to set my shoulders and drive with my lats, like that'll make sure that you don't like like stress that pack.
Anthony Shefferly:And mental health isn't any different. Like, if you understand the mechanism of trauma, how your mind is organizing the threat and how you, how you continue to organize threats external to that original thing, that that was real Right. If you do that all the time, that's you know that's a trigger, right, your trigger, and then that that causes the, the anxiety and and all that stuff to kind of snowball. So if you understand how the mechanism works, you can have a way better time of like, of of rewiring the circuitry in order for it not to occur, versus if you don't understand the mechanisms and you don't understand how your brain and your mind are working and how that like and how that also ties in with your physiology, then it's going to be a lot harder. It's going to feel like you don't have as much control as you do.
Tyra Valeriano:Okay, what about fitness? I mean, you've been doing fitness for how long?
Anthony Shefferly:Um since I was five since you were five. Okay, so you obviously know, even back through, like sports and middle school, high school, that kind of stuff, like yeah, like for my whole life, basically.
Tyra Valeriano:Okay, so you know the importance of of staying fit and healthy. And when you got into this profession, what do you notice about police officers and their health?
Anthony Shefferly:So law enforcement is like a microcosm of society, right, With everything, with divorce rates, with obesity rates, like they all kind of match the general population. But the issue with law enforcement is that everything we do is exaggerated because of the intensity of the job, right? So if, if a normal population divorce rates are like 50%, ours are like 70%. Obesity is, like, you know, 60%, ours are 80%. So we're always like a bigger version, like an, like an exploded version of of the the like general society. Um, so, yeah, we're, I mean, over overweight and obesity I think it's like 80%, like combining those two. I think just obesity, it's at least 50 to 60% of law enforcement.
Anthony Shefferly:And that's that's insane, right, that's that's completely insane. That, uh, that that more departments are not taking this, more cities, more agencies, the governments that hire these people dump hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in training. Right, I can't. I've been on a SWAT team for 14 years, all the training that I've had, and there's, we don't even have a physical yearly to make sure that we're physically healthy enough to do the job. So from an investment standpoint, that's terrible. That's terrible. Why would you not make sure that the investment it's like a car, like you get the oil changed, you check that out. When it breaks, you take it to a mechanic, but for some reason you're going to dump hundreds of thousands of dollars in training into these, into these highly trained officers, and then just be like, yeah, whatever, Like we're not going to check any ever again, Like we're going to we're not going to care about your health, like that's.
Tyra Valeriano:that's crazy. Yeah, I've noticed that agencies are giving incentives actually to do that test yearly. So instead of it being mandatory, it's an option and of course, people are drawn to money so they'll do it. But most people won't because they can't. They can't pass it, so they're not going to do it. But that's how they're doing it, incentivizing it versus actually mandating it.
Anthony Shefferly:So when we're talking about mandating things like fit tests like that's a whole can of worms, that now we're talking about unions and now we're talking about like on, like a bunch of stuff right, you can't argue is the fact that we want to make sure that we are healthy enough to do the job period right. So we're talking about like base level physical and like a stress test. Just go and check your heart, walk on a treadmill, make sure you don't have any like heart blockages that are making you a time bomb on the street, right? Um, because my time on, I think our department's lost three officers, all cardiac related. So we train, you know, driving and fighting, shooting, but we're losing cops left and right to cardiac related events and nobody's saying shit about that.
Anthony Shefferly:Um, so the fix for that, the first, the first step in the in the fix for that is making sure that you just get your cops a physical every year, that's it Right, and then you can start building from there. But if you don't even check to see if they're healthy enough to walk on an inclined treadmill, like there's nowhere to go from there, you have to set that as the baseline. Hey, we just want to check your health and make sure you're good, and our fire department actually has that as a thing that they do every year Most fire departments do. They make them take a stress test, they strap them to the electrodes, they have them walk on the treadmill and that has saved in my time here, probably three to five firefighters that were like 90% blockages. They take them in for double bypass right away and they saved their lives. I've seen it.
Anthony Shefferly:So why aren't we doing the same thing? I don't know.
Tyra Valeriano:That's a good question. I want to say when I was in law enforcement, I had a hard time being able to eat food, so I don't know that I would have been able to get overweight because we were just so busy and I felt like I was starving most of the time.
Anthony Shefferly:Well, that was my theory. And it. Well, and that goes back to stress management. Like I would say that if, if, Dan, correct me if I'm wrong but if, if you are stressed, what do you do personally, Like, do you eat when you're stressed or do you not eat when you're stressed?
Tyra Valeriano:When I'm stressed, I go to the gym. I think that's something that I got from being in the career is just going to the gym, and it's just been something I've done since, but I would say, maybe before, that maybe comfort eating would have been a thing that I used to do prior to the career.
Anthony Shefferly:Yeah, so you know. I mean, if you just look at it from a stress management standpoint on the job, off the job, busy, not busy Like you can always find cookies and donuts and shit food, hyper palatable food that's super high calorie to deal with stress. Like if you deal with stress through food, like you'll do it on the job and off the job with stress through food. Like you'll do it on the job and off the job If you don't deal with stress food, uh, and you manage it some other way, whether it's healthy or unhealthy, like that will mitigate weight gain or could anyway, uh. And then you talk about, like, like cycles of like, well, you might be too busy on the job, but there's at least 12 hours off the job every day that you have to consume as many calories as you want, you know. So, like, do you want to know what?
Tyra Valeriano:I was doing on those 12 hours. Well, yeah, I wanted to sleep. I don't know. I think most I can't speak for men, but I would say most women need at least nine to 10 hours of sleep. I was dying If I could not get my rest on my days off. I was just a freaking piece of crap for my family. I just couldn't function Right. Just a freaking piece of crap for my family. I just couldn't function right. So I had to take one day and I didn't even have that. To be honest, what advice would you give to officers that are looking to better their health? Let's say they're in a situation where they know that, hey, I am overweight or I'm thinking I have a health problem. I haven't checked it out. What? What's a good start for them?
Anthony Shefferly:Uh well, the I'm glad you mentioned sleep. Like sleep is is is kind of an and like sleep and schedule, right? Um, number one thing that I hear from cops is I don't have any time, which which in this job sometimes is true, right, like I don't have time to get to the gym five days a week for an hour and a half sessions. That's probably true, you know what I mean. Like I don't have that and I have my gym in my garage. So, uh, like what's the hack? Right?
Anthony Shefferly:Um, you look at your schedule, whether you write it down on paper or have it on a, like a Google calendar or whatever and then you, you set your non-negotiables and you set your sleep first, right, regardless of how much sleep you need or want, want or like you have to set a consistent bedtime and a semi consistent wake up time. Right, those things have to be regular. And then you set your workout time and then you set your meal times and then, like, you plan these things and then you just start chunking away at it. You try to be as consistent as you can. But, like sleep recovery, uh, making sure that you're consuming protein and moving, and like that's like the lowest hanging fruit.
Anthony Shefferly:Um, you know, to start to start moving in the right direction, it doesn't have to be anything crazy. I'd love to say like I have the best program by my program, but like they're all kind of the same, like move more, sleep more, uh and and eat more protein. Therefore, you'll have less room for junk food. You know, if you're focusing on just wild card is like make sure you're hydrated, right, if you do those things, you'll start, you'll start to have progress and you just do it the best you can every day and if you do that like you'll be all right, you'll get there.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, all jokes aside, um, you know, I I definitely feel for the law enforcement community when it comes to health, but when I left I had this nervous system reaction and I've talked about it on past podcasts. But I was in a constant state of stress because this is what we're living through during our career every single day. It's nonstop and after years and years of doing it I felt that I just couldn't shake it off. So it goes kind of past even just the physical part of things or just eating right and getting enough sleep. It goes into that stress management and how we're handling stress. So I know you asked me earlier how do I handle stress. I want to say that most police officers would say I go to the gym or, you know, I drink a beer or whatever they may do. Have you found anything that you would suggest to officers that might be listening, what is most beneficial for you or what might help them in stress management tactics or techniques?
Anthony Shefferly:I think that you kind of alluded to it. There's not one tactic that's going to work best. Right, because you can say the gym is best, but at the same time, like going and working out sometimes is too much stress. Like if you go and you work out hard every day and then you burn it down at work every day and then you're like I'm super stressed out, I'm going to do two workouts today, like that probably is not a good idea. If you're already training that much, you should probably find a different tactic in order to regulate your nervous system. So, really, like when you mentioned nervous system regulation, that's the biggest thing, whether it's like breath work or ice bath or just learning how to like or go for a walk. I don't like stuff that you like to do that you know is going to bring you down into a parasympathetic state. Right, that's going to be really impactful for stress management.
Anthony Shefferly:We are all good at going sympathetic, fight or flight. All of us right, and really most of us enjoy that. That's why we want the job right. We want to drive fast, we want to fight people, we want to do stuff that's going to, that's going to send us sympathetic, because that's fun. You know it's exciting, uh, it's that, that dopamine, that that adrenaline that you know that whole system gets activated and it's and it's super cool. Um, the downside to that is, is that, like, usually, usually personalities that like that stuff, uh, also like, um, oh, recreational activities that also do those things? You know, uh, crossfit, jiu Jitsu, I love both of them Right. Wonder why, uh, what else? Driving uh motorcycles fast, you know, like, like, doing stuff like that, like racing cars, like, um, all that stuff is all super sympathetic. Now the trick is figuring out how to manage that nervous system and bring it down, because you can't spend all day in sympathetic states or you have, like, your nervous system will be dysregulated and that doesn't help anything.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, and the reason why I bring that up is just, I mean, I experienced it and this is something that I wouldn't have known unless I left, and nobody tells you that it's one of those things. You know, you have these rose colored glasses. Nobody's telling you that, hey, you need to learn how to get back down to your baseline. You know, when you're, when you're on your high at work and you're just your adrenaline's pumping, you have to learn how to regulate your system. And so, because this is something that you kind of have some experience and knowledge in, I was curious what your point of view on that was.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, that's really interesting that that you you, so you didn't notice that regular that that nervous system response until you left Was that and I want to say I've been out of law enforcement now for two and a half years and I want to say the past three months is probably the most steady that I've been. Uh, when I first got out, I moved to Thailand, which I don't know if I told you that, but it's like paradise here. There really is nothing stressful. I mean, what else could I ask for? Right To completely change my environment, and I was literally looking for stress and everything.
Tyra Valeriano:And it's not because I wanted to be stressed, I just couldn't help it. I just felt like that's what my body needed and it was draining me, trying to find a reason to be just upset or just out of out of balance. That's how I felt. So, because I went through this, I want people to know and understand and maybe have some guidance on how they can manage that while they're in the career, because when they do get out, this is something that they're going to probably experience if they don't work on it now.
Anthony Shefferly:Yeah, so so there's a lot to unpack. There actually is like all right, so you, you gave up, you gave up that that job, right, so that provided you with all of that stress and stimulation and all that exciting things, um, that come with being a cop, and then it's gone. So your body is already prepped to deal with it daily, even though you don't have it Right. So it's expecting that stress response and uh, and it's not there. So then you start looking for your body wants to make things like set the same right. So it's like all right, I'm going to start, I'm gonna start fights or conflict or go seek out these things and that's how, like, that's how, uh, that's how affairs happen, that's how, like all these like high risk, uh, like dopamine seeking things happen.
Anthony Shefferly:Is we get so used to that that stress and then we want it and we think it's normal in our body, kind of like requires it almost. So like, how do we? How do we fill in the gaps? How do we? How do we manage that and bring it back down, especially because you said like that transitional phase out of the job is super difficult for a lot of people.
Anthony Shefferly:It happens in law enforcement, happens in military, for sure. I even saw it playing college football, like there were guys that did not transition away from the game well at all, and uh, and that's that's a difficult thing too. So it's this role transition into a new thing and then, to go along with that, you can also look at it and say like, well, why'd you start your podcast? Well, you look for a new mission, right. You look for a new adventure, and if you don't have something that you're kind of like transitioning into at least a rough idea, um, it makes transitions very difficult, and then you start slipping into depression and anxiety, and I'm sure that was part of it too.
Tyra Valeriano:You know, for me I I don't know I kind of have a skewed perception on um how I handle what I would call depression or something. I try to really utilize my environment to not go there. I've been through a lot, just like everybody else has, and we all handle things differently, but that's another topic that we could probably touch on is depression in law enforcement and how people are dealing with that. There's a stigma, and you've been in for 18 years, so I'm sure you you come from a time where nobody talks about anything. You keep it to yourself. You need to be a man, you need to tough it up. This is what you signed up for and that's kind of what we're dealing with now and things are changing and this is at the forefront, where we're trying to bring the awareness, not necessarily because we want people to think that you know you have to talk about it, but it's an issue.
Anthony Shefferly:Uh, it depends on the person and it depends on the way that you compartmentalize. So, like, compartmentalization is like critical, we all do it, right, you all have to. Like, you can't break down on a scene, right, you have to stuff it somewhere, right, you have to deal with it, you have to manage it. And, uh, some people are better at that, some people are worse at that. Um, but, uh, but there's, there's a, a, a price to be paid, you know, and it it just it depends on when and how.
Anthony Shefferly:Um, because, like you know, what I see most times is like, especially with men, right, it's like, well, you have to tough it up and be a man. Well, there is some truth to that. We cannot take that away and say that you need to talk about everything. Sometimes you don't have the right to break down right now. You got to man up and deal with it. That's what you need to do.
Anthony Shefferly:And then, on the back end of that is where you have to learn how to process things and stuff it down, put it away, deal with it, and then, in your own time, like you got to figure out how to unpack that and kind of process it. And what happens is like especially for I'm speaking from experience, right, uh, from from a male standpoint like those things that you stuff down and put away can change over time, right? So the stuff that I saw my second year on, third year, on, fourth year on is not I don't view it the same way as the stuff that, like, as as I do now, looking back on it they mean different things as you age and you mature, and then you look back and you're like, man, that's a, that's a that doesn't feel the same. You know so there's a price to be paid and it could be 20 years from now, you know. So it's like how do you continue to evolve and process these things and make meaning out of them?
Anthony Shefferly:You know, like there's a lot to be said about putting meaning to seemingly meaningless acts of violence, like that's the biggest thing that I've seen. That kind of like messes people up is like when they can't make sense of you know a kid being killed or a family getting wiped out by a semi. Like you can't make sense of that stuff but at the same time you have to try to put it in something that makes sense in your brain as to why it occurred, or the whole world is going to seem dark and awful and meaningless.
Anthony Shefferly:It's like we're all just here and then we die, which isn't the case.
Tyra Valeriano:Right. Do you have plans to retire anytime soon?
Anthony Shefferly:We'll see. So you know, 20 years is coming up and, like you talk about that transitional phase and it's like you know I would like to see every cop, at 20 years or whenever your retirement is able to be pulled, that you have an option to move into something else. You know you can stay if you want, but if you want to get out, like move into something else. And that's where you know the online stuff that I'm doing right now, the experience that I gained running a gym and owning a gym, you know, with 250 members, like those are things that I am looking at building into and having a possible, you know, move out.
Tyra Valeriano:So, yeah, okay, I have a lot of officers that are always well when they leave or retire. They're always like I can't do anything else but this job, and I think we've all been there and I can tell you that it's crossed my mind probably a billion times that I want to go back to being a police officer and I know that I'm really, really good at it and that's probably the best thing that I can do. But in reality, when you start to look at all the things that we do as cops and you translate it, it's just a word. Really it's just a word. If you were to translate it to corporate world or whatever it is that you want to do, after you get out, you can really do anything.
Tyra Valeriano:I mean, we get a lot of experience and we probably just have no idea how to change the words. We're so stuck on our jargon. You know, oh, um, I interviewed this suspect versus okay, that could be translated to, I don't know, customer service. But we're just stuck in our jargon. So when we want to get another job or we want to try something new, nobody wants us because they don't know what that means, they don't know what we're talking about and they don't care.
Anthony Shefferly:Yeah, that's absolutely true, and I actually I sent a message out on our union board because everybody's bitching about the same old stuff we always bitch about we need more money. These guys don't respect us and I just kind of said, like, listen, we have a lot of skillsets that we can take to the public sector and we can leverage these things like in a public or in a private sector, I'm sorry, you know, we can leverage these skills that we have privately and we can make money. You know this, this is a job. It is a, it is a cool job, but it is not the only way that we can make money, you know.
Anthony Shefferly:And we, we do get stuck on roles and titles. And this is who I am. Right, this is my identity, based on the fact that I've been a cop for 17 plus years. Right, this is who I am. I'm a SWAT team guy and, uh, as much as I love those roles, they are temporary and uh, and once you really break that down, then you, then the job doesn't own you as much, right? Um, 2020 was a big like.
Anthony Shefferly:I had some big revelations then where it was like what are you willing to do to stay part of this job. Are you willing to take a government ordered you know vaccine, or are you willing to enforce mandates that you don't agree with, Like a lot of people were like, I have to keep this job. And it was like okay, this it's a job, it is a cool job and it is an identity, but it's a temporary one and all of us are going to have to give it up at some point, right? So use the job, gain the skillset, leverage it you can to make your mission possible, and if it matches with the agency, cool. And if it doesn't anymore, see ya, I'll take my skills somewhere else.
Tyra Valeriano:So what is leadership like in your agency? I don't want to pinpoint your agency specifically, obviously, but a lot of agencies are experiencing the same thing. They have leadership problems and a lot of the morale is down because of well, let's just blame everything on leadership. Is that kind of what you have experienced in your career?
Anthony Shefferly:All right. So you're talking about government, right, and this is not just my agency, this is every agency, because everybody I talk to all over the country, even in Canada, it's really the same shit, right? When you have people that are appointed politically, it will never be fair. It will. It's always who's buddies with who who politically needs to be here. For what reason? Are they qualified? Probably not, maybe a couple, but probably not. So is what it is right. And then they're going to put people in charge who maybe aren't qualified or maybe you don't like. This is really what it is Like. I don't like those people. It's like, okay, are they qualified or not? Well, I don't know, because I don't like them. And then that filters down. So when you have people that are appointed and not merit-based, that becomes problematic, but that's the structure we have.
Anthony Shefferly:So when you look at leadership, leadership has to occur, like Jocko Willink says, at every level. Right? So you have the ability to lead as a patrol officer or as a as a you know, a corporal or a sergeant, like, whatever your low level, you know lower level. Um, like, leadership positions are like you have the ability to lead at every level. And if you don't take that ownership, then, like it doesn't matter what those guys at the top really do.
Anthony Shefferly:Like if I'm going and I'm I'm taking my calls one at a time, and I have the ability to lead the new guys right as just as a patrolman but I've been on for 17 years, right, so like I have the ability to lead them based on just how I act and how I approach them Right and my attitude, and then I have the ability to lead up the chain to the sergeants if I need to. You know like that kind of stuff happens. But if, if we just look at the guys up top in the ivory tower and we're like those guys suck, like they're always going to suck, they're not designed to be good, right, so this is the structure we have, so deal with it and learn how to lead better at your level. So if you have the opportunity then to get promoted, to rise up to the ivory tower, maybe you'll do a better job. You know, like that's all you can do.
Tyra Valeriano:I think the problem that I've seen and this is just from experience is that that mindset is really good to have, but you know you're going to be going up against the grain eventually in your career because you're going to be leading and you're going to be disagreeing with the people that are above you and you're not going to get anywhere just because, like what you said, politically it's just, it can't change in certain areas and no matter how much you want to go in there and make a difference and be like hey guys, I got your back, I'm going to do this.
Anthony Shefferly:I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. It doesn't usually work out that way, so that is an opportunity in order to, like, flank and communicate Right. So if you run into a wall and you keep running into the wall, how many times are you going to run into the wall before you're like I got to find a way around this wall or over this wall, I can't go through it? You're talking to people and you're in a leadership role and it's like they say, no, this, you're not doing this, or no, whatever. Like you get denied flat.
Anthony Shefferly:It's like okay, well then I need to go back to the drawing board. If I really believe in what it is that I'm presenting, then I need to figure out a way to repackage it and come at them from an angle to make them understand, like, my point of view better. Right, and if I and, however, I need to do that, that's that's my job in learning and leading. It's like I have to lead my people, not by being just a blunt object and smashing through the wall. Like, even if you win, like what's going to be on the other side of that? Like you're just going to be known as an absolute bulldozing, and maybe that's appropriate, but probably, probably not. Like you, you probably ought to find a way to kind of flank that and figure out how to communicate better.
Tyra Valeriano:I'm going to say that I do think that communication is a huge problem. But even if you're a good communicator as a leader, you can't make another leader be a good communicator. You can't make them understand something. So, no matter how many times you do something over or how many times you go back to the writing block and you're like, hey, I need to do it this way or change it up, if they're not understanding and they choose not to understand, you will never get through that rock wall or around it or over it, because you cannot change the other person. You know what I mean. So I feel like that's kind of a problem that a lot of leaders are facing, and maybe not leaders, maybe patrol feels it the most. They feel it the most when the leaders are not communicating effectively and they're bumping heads because you can't change each other. So if one's hey, I'm communicating really well, I know I am and the other one's not taking it for what it is, it's just never going to go anywhere.
Anthony Shefferly:You can't change other people, that's absolutely true. But what you can do is you can seek to understand their thought process better, right. So it's like all right, I can't stand this guy. I can't stand the way he operates. I don't like the way he leads. Like he's my direct supervisor, though, like I can learn to understand him so that I can, one, work with him and then, two, I can understand how he communicates, why he thinks the way he does, so that when I need something or when I want something, I can package it in a way that actually makes sense to him. You know, um, and we'll get you somewhere.
Anthony Shefferly:I don't know, maybe, maybe not, but at the same time, you're learning that skill set because it will pay off in the future. Maybe, with your kids, you know what I mean. Like that skill set because it will pay off in the future. Maybe with your kids, you know what I mean. Like, all right, I'm seeing things.
Anthony Shefferly:I'm trying to understand people better in order to understand their thought process, who they are, where they come from. You know all these different factors that lead them to believe the way they do, even if it's super rigid and doesn't make sense. It's really stupid, right? So, like I understand why they're stupid, right, so that I can better communicate with stupid people, so we do that. We do that on on runs all the time. We do that on calls for service. We go to people that that are highly stressed and not educated and probably drunk, right. So now we need to seek to understand, like, what is causing them to act this way and how do we figure out a way to fix this, right, you know, and there's a million different ways to do that.
Tyra Valeriano:So Well, we're running out of time and there is a question that I like to ask all of my law enforcement guests and really your answer is whatever you want it to be, but I want it to be for listeners to gain some insight on what they can take into perspective and maybe change in their career. What would you tell your rookie self, based on your experience, to do differently now that you know what you know?
Anthony Shefferly:My rookie self um, slow down a little bit, probably, like you don't need to burn down everything all at the same time. Right, there's time to do it. And uh, looking back, I think I was actually told that by people and I disregarded it. So like, yeah, I think that's most of us, yeah, and that just, and that just comes with age, but uh, but yeah, you'll actually buy yourself more time doing cool stuff If you just just slow down a touch. You don't have to run headfirst and everything. Slow down a little bit, feather the gas, you know, and and then and then move. You know probably that.
Tyra Valeriano:That's good advice, I would say I agree with that, and whoever listens, I hope they take that advice because, like you said, somebody told you once upon a time and you didn't listen, and I'm sure somebody told me that too Okay. So if the listeners want to make contact with you or ask you any questions, maybe even about your coaching you do fitness coaching Okay. If they want to make contact with you or ask you any questions, maybe even about your um coach you you do fitness coaching Okay. If they want to ask you any questions about that, or maybe even pick your brain at psychology or what you think about law enforcement, how can they contact you?
Anthony Shefferly:Um, so probably the best way is Instagram. Uh, it's Anthony underscore. Heroic industries, uh, or heroic industries on Instagram. Both of those are fine, those, those both go right to me. And then I also have a school community and it's an online training platform that's totally free for law enforcement first responders. If you want to link to that, then I can totally get it to you through Instagram, or I don't know if I can give it to you and you can post it up, but that's totally free.
Tyra Valeriano:Yeah, I can do that.
Tyra Valeriano:Okay, yeah, that would be those would be the best ways, okay, well, thank you so much, anthony. I appreciate your time. Thank you for your expertise. I really enjoyed today's conversation and for the listeners, thank you for tuning in, for your continued support and everyone, be safe. We'll see you on the next one. Thank you for joining me on chapter blue. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow and tag me on social media and share with your friends and fellow officers. If you're interested in joining an episode, I'd love for you to be a part of the conversation. Until next time, stay safe, take care of yourself and remember you're never alone in this journey.