Corrections to Patrol: How a Use of Force Changed my Career Forever

A single use of force can change your body, your career, and the way you see yourself. We sit down with Tim, a former corrections and patrol officer, to talk about what it’s really like working in a psychiatric detention facility where the mission is part hospital and part jail, but the safety standards do not always match the risk. He breaks down the messy reality of a split chain of command, why officers pushed for basic tools, and how understaffing and mandated overtime turned routine days into long, dangerous shifts behind locked doors.

Tim also tackles the question people argue about online but rarely explore in depth: who should handle mental health calls. We walk through why “mental health” is not one predictable scenario, how substance use can mirror psychiatric crisis, and why scene safety has to come before treatment. If you care about policing policy, crisis response, corrections safety, and reducing injuries for everyone involved, this part will hit hard.

Then we get personal. Tim recounts the forced medication incident where he takes two heavy strikes, powers through on adrenaline, and later learns he has multiple damaged cervical vertebrae with nerve compression and loss of fine motor skills. We talk workers comp, light duty pressure, the invisible cost of “looking fine,” and the grief that comes with stepping away before you’re ready. He shares what helped him stay grounded as a dad and husband, plus how he rebuilt purpose by launching Tactable Security Solutions and teaching situational awareness and personal safety to civilians.

If you know a first responder dealing with an on-the-job injury or medical retirement, share this episode with them. Subscribe, leave a review, and follow us on Instagram or your favorite podcast platform.

Contact Tim Santoro
tactibullss@gmail.com
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Transcript

Meet Tim And His Path

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today's guest is Tom Santoro. He's out of Nevada. Thank you for joining me today, Tim. I appreciate your time and for making time to talk to me today. Tim has worked in corrections and patrol, and he had to leave law enforcement due to a spine injury that was the result of a use of force. After leaving law enforcement, he went on to start his own security company and he has been sharing his story to hopefully help others still in the profession. I know there are a lot of first responders out there who are medically retired, currently going through the process or they're fighting the process. I feel like that's more common. And they have on-the-job injuries. So I think this is going to be a really good conversation for those who can relate to that. I have a friend who grew up that I grew up with, and she was an officer who was medically retired. Obviously, her story is a little different, but I do know that that is something that she's a huge advocate for. So I think that you being able to share that side of what you go through and how you dealt with that is going to resonate with a lot of people. But Tim, tell us about yourself. Tell us about your background and what you're doing today.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Oh, yeah. Um, so I'm originally from uh Cleveland, Ohio. Uh now live out in uh Las Vegas, Nevada. So uh I spent a combined about, I want to say, uh 12 years in law enforcement. I did uh the the main thing that we had discussed. Uh I worked uh psychiatric corrections for seven years. So this is a psychiatric detention facility for inmates who are under mental health evaluation as deaned by the court. Um so I did do that for a while, got hurt on that job, um stayed there for a little longer, left that job, um, did some patrol out in a rural agency in Nevada, and um for I want to say about the last four or five years, I've been running my own private security company to where I do uh trainings and stuff and teachings for civilians and different security procedures and things like that, and equip them with the skills that I've learned over the years so they can go out and they can be safe in their everyday travels.

How Psych Corrections Happened

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Very nice. So, what got you into the psychiatric part of corrections?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Uh total fluke. Um, I grew up always wanting to be in law enforcement, and uh, you know, life life gets in the way of stuff and um ended up taking a bunch of jobs I didn't like and finally in my uh 30s decided that hey, I'm gonna actually go and chase that dream that I wanted to. And um I applied for at the time I was a Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, which is the biggest agency in Nevada. Uh went through that process and um right in the middle of backgrounds and got a nice little email that says, Um, Congratulations, we just instituted a hiring freeze. So we won't be hiring anybody. And in Nevada, there was about a dry spell of, I want to say about three, four years, and right around when the economy kind of fell apart, um, three or four years. So I ran into a police officer who um told me about an unaffiliated police academy that he taught at. So, for those of you who don't know, an unaffiliated academy is something it's almost like college. You pay your way through there as a student and then go and use those credentials to try to get somewhere. Um, so I went there, did that, graduated that with a police officer certification, and um was looking for work. And while that was happening, I was doing some security work just to you know get money coming in. And I the facility that I was at was the facility I ended up actually working for. So I was at their kind of front gate as a contracted security person checking in people, making sure they weren't bringing in contraband, and got to know the sergeant over there. And he's like, hey, uh, if you want a job, you know, let me know and I'll help you get in. Corrections is never something I wanted to do. I didn't want any part of that. But at the time it was, you know, well, let me get going, let me start making some some money because the security wasn't paying anything. And um, being unaffiliated with my certification, I had a period of two years to go ahead and um get a job, or my certification would expire. So the sergeant, his name was uh David Joseph. I will forever be you know eternally grateful to him, helped me out, and he said, Hey, I'll give you a job, it'll keep your certification going until you get somewhere else. And um ended up staying there seven years.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Very nice. I remember working in corrections, and I it was like you, it wasn't on the plan. It wasn't something I was interested in. You kind of like, hey, you know what? Um let me try this out. And then I found out that being inside those walls for 12, 16 hours a day was just not for me.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah, no, I don't I looking back, I don't know how I did it as long as I did. Um, but but somehow I did. It was um a learning experience, and ironically, looking back now, I think anybody who wants to work patrol should at least do a minimum uh one year in corrections, because I find it desensitizes you, because I always look at that, and you have like a 21-year-old who's fresh out of school or whatever, and he wants to go join PD. And the second he goes out on the street and somebody calls him out his name or calls her mother out of their name or insults his gender or her race or anything like that, what is the first thing they're gonna do? They're gonna be up in arms and ready to fight. But if you're not saying corrections is a controlled environment, but it's more controlled than the streets, so you go out there and by that you get desensitized to where you can call me any name in the book, you can insult me any way you want, and I'm just gonna laugh at you. Yeah, because I've heard it, I've heard every insult you can imagine. I've been insulted every which way. It's like you can't do it. Yeah, so it's to the point where you go out there and when you deal with the general public, it's it's it's like laughable. It's like, is that the best you got?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, the maturity level. I mean, when you're surrounded, especially by people who have committed crimes and you know, they're in there walking around like they're just a bunch of badasses, and here you are. Yeah, I definitely think it humbles you and it it adds some maturity to your life if you decide you want to be on patrol.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

And what's ironic is I realize that you know, at the end of the day, it's a dangerous situation. You're dealing with dangerous people, but I ended up getting a weird little respect for especially the ones that have been in the system for a long time, because even though it's opposing sides, there's a mutual respect between the old school criminals and guys who have institutionalized and law enforcement. Maybe we don't like one another, and like I said, we're on opposing sides, but there's that mutual respect to where I had gang members and murderers and all these people who anybody with and you know any amount of sanity would be scared of these people, but it's you had a mutual respect to them.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, I remember it.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Yeah, and I had I had one guy I'll never forget, and he always told me, he goes, Hey, you look out for me. So if anything ever goes down, I got your back. I was like, You you don't need to get my back, I can handle myself. He's like, No, anybody tries to put hands on you, I'll deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Yeah, I remember that. There was a guy, um, I think he had murdered a couple of people, and of course I was a little intimidated at first, but uh he used to be in segregation and he would have to go out into wreck by himself. And there you can tell when they have respect for you, and there's nothing to be afraid of, you know. It's kind of like they just they know they messed up and they're doing their time, and there is that mutual respect. I I do recall that.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah, I think the one that really got me is I had a guy who I I'm short, I'm only 5'4, and I had a guy come up to me once who was like six foot something and very good shape, and he looked at me, and I won't use the explicit if he did, but basically he goes, I'm not messing with you. So I'm thinking in the back of my head, thank God. But I looked at him, okay. Like you could probably kick my ass with you know, little effort, but he says, No, he says, because I've been in this game long enough to know that I may get you and the five guys who show up to back you up, it's not gonna end well for me. He goes, I'm not, I'm not even gonna touch you. You're gonna not not have any problems for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

It's like wow, okay. So let's jump into your time at the

A Facility Caught Between Worlds

SPEAKER_00 8:17

prison. So I know that you had an injury that resulted from a use of force, and you spent seven years there. So tell us a little bit about your time working there and what led up to that ultimate injury.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Right. So when I first started out, this facility had only been open for less than a year. Uh, it was still figuring itself out. And the problem when it comes to this, and I can't speak on every other jurisdiction, but where I was, is there was that weird line of is it psych, is it medical, is it jail, is it what is it? To where there was, we had medical people there, of course. So there's nurses and there's doctors because these people are under psychiatric evaluation. And to them it was, well, these are our patients and we care for them. And they would negate the fact that these people also committed heinous crimes. And like I always said, they came through the doors in in cuffs, they leave in cuffs. So to them, inmate was a bad word, which was ironic because the actual inmates would walk around referring to themselves as inmates, but God forbid we use that, we we'd be, you know, talked to and in trouble. So it was that us against the mentality, not with us as the officers against the inmates, but us again as officers up against the medical authorities that was there, you know. So it was dealing with that. And because it's a psychiatric setting, there's a lot of considerations that are taken into where you can't have everything that you might have in like a state prison or the jail or something like that. So, like we had talked about before, we lacked any equipment. We fought for it, but we were never permitted to have equipment. So we were basically in there, and you had nothing but your hands to defend yourself. Um, and oh god, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

So um, just so I'm clear, the psychiatric section was inside the jail. Because I know that there's usually like a medical department, and I mean, how is that set up in the in the jail?

SPEAKER_02 10:19

This was a totally separate facility.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Um, so I'm actually writing a book about this in my whole experience, and because a lot of people don't understand how this area of criminal justice works. So basically, somebody's in county jail, um, and through one way or another they get referred because there's a question of their competency. So they would get referred, and then the a court order would be written and they'd be transferred to this other facility. And this other facility did nothing but house people um who were there for psych evaluation and to see if they were competent to stand trial.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Okay. So, okay, so you um didn't have any tools, and why were you guys fighting for tools? Was there a lot of you know stuff going on in there that you guys felt it was necessary?

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Oh, a hundred percent. And those of us with law enforcement training, and we had a lot of guys who would come from the prison and they would come over uh here to work with us, uh, because it was uh still um under the state umbrella, and we would all look at this and say, Well, we need things to protect ourselves, we need tools to protect ourselves, be it cuffs or batons or or anything like that. And it was always the uphill battle because our command structure went up to a lieutenant, our lieutenant answered to a civilian administrator, and the overall person who ran this facility was a psychiatrist. So the way they look at it, I remember the one time they'd said to us, Well, you don't need equipment because this is a hospital. And I probably really put my foot in my mouth and I noted to them, well, hospital, their security has firearms and cuffs and this and that and everything else. They didn't like that argument very much because then, well, these are our patients. And and I understand that, but the problem with this is a lot of these people were very violent, and and I'm not trying to pigeonhole psych or anything like that. A lot of these people have real problems, but at the same time, they can be very dangerous.

unknown 12:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

And I saw multitudes of my coworkers, and including myself, get hurt because of these hands-on scenarios that we were forced to go into, and stuff that would never even happen in you know state prisons or jails and stuff like that because they had higher security measures. We just didn't have those higher security measures, and it would put us and our safety at risk.

Mental Health Calls And Safety

SPEAKER_00 12:47

So you know, I find that interesting because this is kind of one of the arguments that are in the forefront of law enforcement right now, and it's it's kind of been there for a couple of years when we're dealing with mental health issues in people that we're dealing with out in the streets and whether or not officers should be the ones dealing with them or should it be medical staff. And obviously, we know the risks that come with security, safety, uh, all of that. And here you are, you know, you're working, yes, in a medical facility, but your chain of command is is kind of split. So you're dealing with paramilitary and then all of a sudden medical, and it kind of puts that gap there. And I feel like that's what law enforcement faces today. There's that gap, but they just don't have that medical advisory at the top. It's kind of like a battle that they're doing right now.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Oh, yeah. And you know what? We had civilian employees in there, social workers and doctors and whatnot, and a majority of them got hurt. Um, and it's this probably sounds like a bad comment, but I always used to say we had nurses that would work with us on the units, and I would always say there's two types of nurses, and I respect nurses immensely. My mom's been a nurse for almost 50 years, but here's the thing there's nurses who have been hit, and there's nurses who haven't been hit. And you could tell the difference because I remember one specific nurse, she would go around and these were her patients, she she would care for them, which is rightfully so, because that's her job as a healthcare provider, until the day that she got hit, and literally just walking up to a guy to do um give him his meds. And he looked right at her and asked her a simple question, I forget what it was, and she responded and he slugged her right in the face. Just unprovocated. And after that, her whole perception changed. She would come to us, will you escort me here? Will you escort me there? Is it safe to go here? Is this safe? And it's like it became a reality to her now that, oh yeah, these are my patients, but I'm working in a very dangerous situation. And that translates to the street too. And it always makes me cringe when I hear, well, you know, police shouldn't respond to mental health calls, but we don't know what a mental health call is, and there's so many varying degrees of mental health, and then there's mental health, and then there's people who are under substance, and they present the same exact way.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

And it's foolish to send somebody in there who's untrained and unable to protect themselves because you're putting them at gravest risk, you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

So yeah, I don't even know where I stand on that actually. I I've actually been thinking about it, no reason to think about it, but um, you know, I've seen some videos lately that have come out with mental health calls that officers are responding to. And, you know, I see the public and medical professionals commenting on that and putting their two cents in. And I think I'm just on the line about it because I I understand where they're coming from, but I also understand the law enforcement side and the safety protocols, and we don't know what it can turn into. I think a medical professional, if I'm correct, maybe it was a counselor or somebody, she approached, you know, somebody with a mental health issue and she ended up getting stabbed. And that's what I'm talking about. You know, like you have these professionals, but what other way is there to go about it? I just I don't know the answer. It's it's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

And you may realize this from being an LE. There's the relationship that we have with fire. So if fire shows up to a scene and the house is on fire, but there's shots coming from that house, what is fire gonna do? They're gonna hold and they're gonna wait until LE clears that house.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

So to me, what is the difference in in the in the sense then the mental health worker is the same as fire? I'm gonna hold until the situation is safe, and then I'm gonna go do my job because now I know it's safe, and that danger factor is is controlled because now the officer has come in, you know. So I that's just the kind of way I'd liken it.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

So tell me a little bit about some of the uses of force that you've been in been in and why you guys felt it was necessary to request tools and maybe kind of lead into why you guys were denied that.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Sure. So um and anybody who's anyhead in law enforcement training knows that you know we don't fight fair. It's not a ring, it's not MMA, it's not, okay, you want to throw fists at me, I'm gonna throw fists at you. That's why police officers have tools and corrections officers have tools. And we would bring this to the attention of our administration to where if somebody was combative and we were able to uh gain control of them, we were basically sitting there holding them until they could come in with a restraint chair or something like that because we didn't have cuffs and we didn't have certain things. Or you have individuals who, because of their mental conditions or whatnot, would have immense strength and it would turn off the parts of the brain that would control the limits that we usually have, so they would not feel pain. And your body regulates strength limits to where realistically you could move things and use more strength than you do, but your brain shuts that off so you don't over over tax your nervous system or hurt yourself. These people who don't have that

Hands On Fights Without Tools

SPEAKER_02 18:05

control will have immense strength and immense abilities, and then you're sitting there. Uh, I remember the one time we actually timed it, it was a 21-minute hands-on fight with this guy.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

And it turned out to be 21 minutes because it was holding him, and he had a propensity to also bite. So it was a matter of holding him because we couldn't even control him good enough to get him up to put him in the restraint chair to put him in there. So that's that was our argument of this is why we need tools. And from the perspective of people in the criminal justice system, they're gonna look at this and they're gonna say, Well, okay, I just came from county jail where these guys are kitted out beyond belief and they have everything under the sun, and here I am with a bunch of people who has nothing. That's that's like free range, you know. Yeah, they realize they can get over on you better because you don't have the equipment to go ahead and protect yourself.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

On average, how many officers were on shift in your department of corrections?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah, so an average shift, we might have 20 to 30, and that was spread over. We had eight units. We had um seven lockdown units and then a dormitory unit. Um, so if we were lucky, but we had large staffing problems because we had large attrition problems. We were the uh lowest paid in the state when it came to law enforcement, so we lost a lot of people, you know. So, or because of the work hours and the stuff like that we discussed, it's very mentally taxing on you to have to deal with this. So call-offs were abundant and things like that. So it wasn't unusual to find yourself working alone on a unit.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Or maybe have one coworker be bouncing back and forth, you know, which like I said, guys from the state prisons will say, Well, I worked a unit alone with 150 inmates, but you had so many precautions there. I I don't know where you were in in your prison, but I know a lot of the prisons they have the gun bubble up there and they have the towers and they have stuff like if stuff excellates to a certain level, there's cert teams, there's this, there's that. We're alone with no cert team and no gun bubble and no, you know, no equipment and no protection. And we had a code system and a response team, but that I was hoping you could get to your radio while you're also sitting here defending yourself.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

You know, I think it's funny because uh it sounds like, oh, I worked, you know, by myself with this many inmates. It's not a flex. I mean, honestly, if something were to happen, you're you're in danger, and it's not, you know, something to to brag about. I personally don't think that it's cool to say, hey, I did this, I'm good. I mean, the reality is that that's not okay. And you probably need some more officers working with you. But I I understand because you know, working in the prison, uh, it is hard. It I just remember, like I said, it wasn't for me and being inside those walls for 12 to 16 hours a day, depending on the shift. Uh I just I hated life.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah. And the common saying amongst that, and I'm sure you've heard it, is you're locked up too.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah, I would say that.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Yeah, locked up. It's no different, and it is incredibly mentally taxing.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

It is.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

You know.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Uh okay, so tell me a little bit about the use of force that resulted in your injury that you're dealing with today.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yes, ma'am. Um, so we had an individual who was refusing medication. So when they're sent there, they're sent there on a court order and they meet with doctors and stuff like that. And if the doctors deem they um need medication, they usually fill out the scripts and stuff like that. Now, because they're under court order, they cannot refuse these medications. So this individual was refusing the medication, so the doctor deemed that, okay, well, he's now a hazard to himself and others. So they fill out paperwork. Which is a denial of rights to basically say you either take the meds or you have to be force administered the meds. Um, so that that went through, and it was the first day that this went through, and we were notified that okay, uh, this gentleman has to start taking his meds today. The doctor already signed everything. We now have a court order issued by a judge that if he is offered meds and refused, then what happens is basically the nurse goes and draws up an injection of his medication instead of the pill form, and he's given the choice to where you can either be physically restrained and administer this, or you can take the pills. Uh, we gave him this choice and he flat out said, He goes, I ain't taking no pills. Give me what you got. So we we prepared, we stacked outside of the room that

The Use Of Force Injury

SPEAKER_02 22:45

he was in. This is a large gentleman, he was about 6'3, 260 pounds. Uh, we stacked outside the room, um, ready to do that, because basically what we would do is we would go in, put hands on him, and then once he was held down and controlled, the nurse would come in and administer the injection. It's a very chaotic process. There's many times I would look and I'm sure you've been hands-on enough to know that it's never clean. You're always twisted up like a pretzel, and this arm's there, and this arm's there. And I would always worry to myself, I hope they don't hit me with the needle, you know, when I'm trying to get in or they're trying to squeeze in somewhere. Um, so we went and we breached the door and went in and he he was ready to go. He didn't care that four people were breaching his door and he came out ready to fight. Um, so we went in and I got struck in um the side of the head. So he hit me with a hook and basically hit me in the left side of my temple, and then he came down with the second punch, and right in the crook of my neck where your neck hits your shoulder, he came down with a punch right into that area. And like I said, I'm 5'4. This gentleman was 6'3, 260.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Um, you know, adrenaline's a wonderful thing. I had no idea it happened. Uh, but we ended up getting him restrained, and uh the the injection was administered. He was uh eventually put into a restraint chair and housed in seclusion for a while after that. Um, we walked away from that situation, and one of my buddies looked at me and he goes, You all right? I go, Yeah, I'm great. Why? He goes, I don't get how you're still standing. He goes, because he walloped you. He goes, I thought you were gonna go down for sure. I go, but I feel fine. An hour later, that adrenaline wore off, and all of a sudden it felt like somebody was driving a freight train through my head.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Because we were short-staffed, and not to sound tough or anything, but it's like I want to be there to support my fellow officers, I can't leave. So I sat there with a raging, pounding headache. Um, and I called off the next day. I said, I gotta go get looked at, and went to the urgent care, and that's when they did all their tests, and down the road ended up having a bunch of MRIs and stuff, and found out that from this um I ended up injuring uh four vertebrae. Uh, two of them are ruptured and two of them are bulging. And one of the ones that is ruptured is um pushing on my spinal cord. So it's caused nerve damage down my arm and um loss of fine motor skills in my left hand in that because that bulging disc is pressing on the nerves of my spinal cord and affecting everything because everything everything kind of gravitates toward from your neck. I learned this the hard way that basically your neck is one of the most important things in your body because that's the central thing for everything. And so by that pressing on that, it throws everything off, and that's just kind of what I'm left dealing with from that.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

I'm kind of curious. Uh, in a setting like yours, I mean, I'm used to working patrol, and anytime an officer is injured, even in the minor, in any kind of minor way, it's always recommended that they report the injury as soon as possible, just in case it results in something later on. Is that kind of the same advice that they give you guys in the agency or department that you worked at?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

It it is, it is. Um, it's not taken as serious, unfortunately, at least when I was there the way I felt, as it would be for the officers in the street. Um, like I said, for me, I stayed because I wanted to support officers and we were short staffed that day, but nobody sat there and urged me to say, hey, go get checked out. Hey, fill out this paperwork, hey, do the, you know, there was no urging. It was more of me saying, Okay, my head feels like it's an advice. I gotta go get checked out. They were supportive on the end to where I filled out the work on paperwork and all that stuff, but there was no push to, you know what, you sustain, you know, two good hits to the head, maybe you need to go get yourself checked out.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, I guess for me, I would say that falls on leadership, but um, you know, when you had this happen to you, how did that make you feel? I mean, now knowing that you had these injuries and what the long-term effects could be for you, how did that affect you?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Oh, yeah. Um, you know what, it it was hard because I I was I was always very proactive. When we went in, I was the first one to go through the door. Not because I want to be a tough guy or anything, but because that's just from my training and I thought, okay, this is what we're doing, this is our job. You know, there was no holding back. And that's probably largely what what led to me getting her first, because I was the first one to go in. But then on the long run, it ended up putting me on like duty for a period of time, and to where now I'm sitting here and I'm staring at a wall on like duty, and there's nothing to do. So it's depressing in that regard. And then you look at that, and I think to the point where it limited what I can do. I have three kids, it limited my ability to do things with my three kids, and my daughter, you know, she was still a lot younger at the time. So it's like, okay, dad, I want to do this, I want to do this, and I was limited in what I could do, or we go out somewhere to do stuff and we're proud any period of time, and I was like, hey, I have to go home and I have to rest because this is I got constant pain shooting through here, or

Light Duty Pressure And Leaving

SPEAKER_02 28:15

I'm having trouble with this, or um, because it is a cervical spine injury, it does come with uh it can interfere with cognitive functions. So there are days to where I'll have brain fog and difficulty concentrating and things like that. And I think the biggest part is it's like it affected my ability to be everything I wanted to be as a parent to my kids.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Right. So okay, I have a couple of questions. Um, first, with the injury that you had, uh, did did you ever feel the pressure when you were on light duty that other officers were like, come on, you you gotta come back. It's not that big of a deal. I mean, was that the same kind of pressure that you would get in that kind of setting?

SPEAKER_02 29:00

It was, it was. It it was twofold. There was either the ones that said there was either the ones that would say what you just said, or there's the others, hey, yeah, you know, milk this for what it's worth. I was like, I am milking this for what it's worth. It's like every time because I had to go in for weekly checks at the you know, um, with the doctor as part of the uh, you know, the work comp, and you'd go there and they'd evaluate and they look at it and they go, okay, well, we're gonna keep you out for another two weeks. It's like uh okay. But like you said, you have people look at you, go, okay, you look fine. I look fine, but I don't feel fine, you know, and that's hard to communicate and hard to explain to somebody, especially an injury like that. So yeah, that's that culture.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

The culture, I guess, just kind of floats around all of law enforcement the same. So, okay, you had this injury, and I'm assuming that after you had this injury is when you went to patrol. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Well, no, I I had the injury. I was on leg duty for a period of time. Um, I actually took myself off of restricted duty because I was offered a uh promotion at the agency I was at, and it was to be the head of the intake. So basically, like um the booking area when all the new ones come in processing that, which was uh to me a very great opportunity. And it's like, oh, I want to take this, and they're like, Okay, well, we would need you to start on this date. And I literally went to my doctor and goes, Look, I need you to release me. He's like, I'm not comfortable doing that. I I don't care, please release me. So I went back and I did that and I stayed for about another two years, and then um it just it wasn't so much the injury, it was just a lot of stuff with the way this agency was run and just what it was doing to me mentally and and that stuff to where it was wearing on me, to where I ended up I ended up leaving because it was too much, and um that was right around the time that I also tried to start my security company, and I found an opportunity to go on patrol kind of in that that meantime there. So I did leave there, and there was a period of time where I wasn't working and then ended up going to the patrol, which ironically I found easier because A, we were more equipped, and there was there was there wasn't that understanding. It's like, okay, we're cops now. It's not that okay, well, this is psych, and you're not this, because when I was doing the psych thing, I had a uh the head psychologist tell me one time, he goes, you know, you're disrespecting yourself by calling yourself an officer. I said, Excuse me, I worked hard to earn that title. And he goes, Oh, but you're so much more. You're you know, you're you're this, that, and the other. I go, I'm sorry, I'm an officer. You're a doctor, you earn the title to be doctor. I don't tell you you're disrespecting yourself by that.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

So it was refreshing to go and actually be what I trained to be and do that. Um in the long run, I I I really won't uh you know get into to why I left uh the agency I was at. Nothing against them. They were great, I had a great time there, but it was kind of a um certain things going on. Um, and then with the injury, it was just a cumulative every of everything that it was like, okay, it's just I have to walk away from this right now. And it broke my heart, and it was one of the hardest things to do, and still to this day it's hard. I'll see a police car drive by running code, and I get a little sick inside. It's like because the worst thing in the world is to see something you want to be and know that you're not that, and to wonder where are they going? What are they gonna get into? And it's like that's it's still hard for me to have that separation, but I have to have that adult side and that smart part of my brain that says you can't do this anymore, you know, and you don't need to be out there because God forbid I take another good hit or something else happens. I already have these injuries, I don't need it going further.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

You know, but it's good that you have that mindset because I mean most officers would just ignore it and be like, you know what, it's fine, it's fine. And and later on down the road, I mean, they're already suffering from injuries that they've had from on the job, and now it just gets worse, you know.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

And one of the two reasons I didn't is because when I was doing patrol, I was I was on graves. Um, and it was bad when I my daughter came to me and she goes, Oh dad, I never I never see you, and and you're always gone, you know. And because it was a rural area, it would take time to get there, so I had to leave extra early and come home extra late. Um, and it was that that really got to me. And also the realization of, like you said, a lot of a lot of officers they'll keep going, but I thought back to that time of when I initially got injured and everything was really bad. And it's like I couldn't fully function as a father to my children. And I thought, okay, now I'm taking all this time away. And then what happens if I get injured further? Am I gonna be even more limited in what I can do? And without getting into it, I didn't have a father, I grew up without one, so it's like I overcompensate when it comes to being a father to my children, and anything that would try to take away from that is my greatest enemy. Yeah, and I didn't want that, and I didn't want that to be a reality.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

So what about um mental health struggles? Uh, you know, working in a prison, I think already comes, I think it's just something that's gonna come with it, my personal opinion. I can't say that everybody agrees with that. Um, but what what do you feel like your personal struggles were in regard to working in the psychiatric department and also your injury? How do you feel like you dealt with that and the struggles that you had?

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Um, it it definitely took a humongous toll. Um I I don't think you realize it until you're completely out of it, but our our administration was very, we had a very poor administration that did not support us very well. So um the running joke was basically instead of good morning, we would walk up to each other and go, hey, where are you applying? So that was just the you know, the kind of running joke around there, but it was true, everybody was trying to get out, and it it wears on you. They had a uh mandate policy, which basically was mandated overtime. So you didn't know when you showed up, um, you know, because I was there for a while, ended up uh, you know, moving up in seniority and having a day shift, but you didn't know if you're gonna go home at the end of your shift or if you're gonna stay for another eight. And

Mental Toll And Home Triggers

SPEAKER_02 35:45

that's especially hard when you have a family to where you leave in the morning, your family expects you to come home at a certain time. They don't expect you to come home in the middle of the night when they're all in bed when you left when the sun was just coming up.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

And that wears on you, and especially our administrators and the supervisors in the higher rankings, they didn't fall under the mandate policy. So there was a lot of times to where you'd sit there and the supervisor would go, Oh, well, got a mandate you, you're doing a 16. And then when the shift was over, you'd see them walking out, they're like, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out, and I'm going to the bar, I'm going to this, or I'm going home, I'm doing the like okay. And you're sitting there looking at your watch, thinking, okay, I'm about to stare down another 16, another eight hours. And it's like that wears on you, and just like you talked about being confined in that environment wears on you, and it's just it shifts away at you slowly. Um, and I think also working psych, you're exposed to a lot of stuff, and you see a lot of stuff that normal people don't deal with, and that exhausts you and takes a toll on you mentally. I remember a time it was um, I was talking to this young kid, I call him a kid, he was in his early 20s, and he he was not not a lot of problems, but he was very delusional. And so he was sitting there telling me stories when I they're just bizarre stories, and you know what, he wasn't hurting anybody, so I was just going along with it, listening, listening, like and agreeing with him and letting him go on. But after about maybe 20 minutes, I realized that it was starting to like interfere with my cognitive ability just because I was listening and playing into him and kind of listening and just being on the same page of where he was, and he was way out left. But I realized to myself, I was like, wow, I actually am like my cognitive is right now being affected by kind of listening to this and being so much subjected to it, to where I'd tell my co-oracle, like, look, I gotta take a walk. I I I I gotta move away from this.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

So Wow, you know how did you deal with all of these things that you had happen to you?

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Um I I have a very good family, you know. I have my wife, I have my kids, and I think i if you don't have something, and that's that's what I would tell any officer now, is you gotta have something besides this job. And if you don't have a family, have a hobby, have something that you do, because you gotta shut it off, and you gotta leave it behind, and you've you've got to have something else that that levels you to kind of wipe all that away. And I think a large part of that was I'd come home and I would do stuff with my kids. And my thing is I don't go out, I'm not a very social person. So if I'm not working, I'm with my family, I'm with my wife, I'm with my kids. You know, I I I have a good buddy of mine for years, he's like, hey, let's go here, let's go there. It's it's not my scene, you know. I'm not into that. I'm perfectly fine at home with my family or going to movies with my kids or you know, going to eat eat lunch with my wife or something like that. And I think that's what helped immensely, but it also took a toll on them because it affected me and it took away a lot from me, and uh it made me somebody that maybe I don't want to be. And of course, anybody who says you don't carry that home is lying because it you can say to turn it off and you can turn it off to a degree, but you're always gonna carry that with you, and it's always like a weight that you're carrying with you, yeah, you know, and it's it's hard, especially when you got kids or or anything that if they want to be rambunctious or something. Well, I just sat there and dealt with people acting up for 16 hours, and it's like now you you triggered easily, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

So oh yeah, I can relate to that. I think the awareness part, I mean, we're very hyper-vigilant already, but having the awareness to acknowledge those triggers at home, I think is what's difficult for most people because even though we know we're being triggered, um, we have to have the awareness to recognize it and say, hey, I I gotta calm down. You know, I this isn't their fault. You know, I went through this and I I need to chill out with my kids or wife. But yeah, I think I think that's a very important topic. Um okay, so tell me a little bit about your business and your security company. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Yes. So um I when I went to the academy that I went to, it was largely run by, it was kind of neat because most police academies are, you know, run by officers that have maybe five, 10 years on the job. Because this was an unaffiliated academy, they hired a lot of retired officers. So I was getting trained by guys who had 20, 30 years, and a lot of it went back to like the 80s and 90s um style of policing, which is, I know, very under scrutiny today because it's a whole different world. But I learned so much from those guys because those guys did stuff back in the days that we can't talk about or wouldn't understand, but they faced a different type of element than we do now. Um, and they're just full of knowledge. Uh, one of our main uh instructors, he would literally bring up the curriculum and go through it and go, well, that's BS, that's BS, you don't need to know that, that's a lie. And then he would just throw it down and he would sit there and tell you stories for an hour. And I learned more from that than I did from every looking at the curriculum. And I realized through all that learning and then what

Turning Experience Into Training

SPEAKER_02 41:24

I learned from uh uh working at this job about situation awareness and safety and all that stuff. It's like I have all these skills that aren't gonna be put to use when I was doing the you know uh corrections. It's like I can't use these skills here. And part of the time I was on light duty, I had a very good uh working relationship with the state director of psychology. And I was on light duty and she came to me and she went, Would you do me a favor? I have some interns starting. They've never worked in a dangerous environment. Could you teach them situational awareness so they know how to protect themselves on their goal? Yeah, I had such a good time putting this all together, and I taught it and it went over great. And I thought to myself, wow, maybe all these skills that I have, I can't get to use them somewhere, but I can share them with other people and empower other people. And it just kind of rang in my head like, hey, you should try to like start a security training company. Because from what I could see, that that doesn't really exist. You know, there's uh police agencies and police academies and things like that, but there's nothing for civilians and things like that. So I looked at that and I told people, well, I wanted to do this. And I got all this, you know, negative answers you get from people, oh, it's too hard, it's an uphill road. It's like, no, I can do this. So I researched it and um it kind of was funny. It coincided that when I got the settlement for my injury, um it was around the same time that I discovered, okay, if I want to do this, the state requires that I become licensed as a private patrol officer because that's their state mandate to be a security consultant and teacher. But the license was $500. I got three kids, I don't got $500 laying around. But like I said, my settlement for my injury came through. And it's like, wow, now I have a huge lump sum of money. And it's like, what not to get religious, but it's like God kind of saying to me, like, hey, this is the opportunity. Look, here's part A, here's part B, put them together. And and I went ahead and did that, got that license, and just started going out there and teaching. And um my uh my mom, she works for a company called Optimum Healthcare, it's uh under the United Healthcare umbrella, and they have two senior centers here in town to where the, you know, um they can go in and get checkups and things like that. And we negotiated to where, hey, uh, would you go in and do uh teach, teach like security and stuff like that? So I went in there, I had a contract with them for a while, and I remember after doing a few classes, one of the center coordinators walked up to me and she. Goes, are you aware that your class is the only one that nobody's ever gotten up and walked out of?

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

And it's like that really impressed me. And it's like, it's like, okay, I have something valuable to offer to people because I learned that the average person they're not equipped to go out into the world and not not to be paranoid, but the world is not a safe place. And you and me come from LE, so we understand what exists out there that maybe the average person doesn't know exists. And it's like there's very there's wonderful people, but there's also inherently extremely dangerous people walking these streets. And you've got to be prepared and have skills to know how to navigate that. And it's like, I want to give that to people and show them that and empower them with the tools to go out there. And it maybe it's not going to protect them 100% of the time. And I always like the questions, they're like, I would tell you, you know, if you're in this situation, do this, this, and this. And people would always ask, but what if this? It's like nothing works 100% of the time, but there's ways to be diligent and um be proactive to where maybe you're not put in that situation to where you have to make those decisions.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

So right. I would say ignorance is bliss. I remember prior to law enforcement, I would go to sleep at night, wake up, everything's just going great. You know, you don't ever think about the worries or the dangers of the world. And then you get into law enforcement and it's just a whole different world. It's completely different. Your world's turned upside down and it's never the same again because now you're just aware of exactly what goes on in the world when you're sleeping, when you're in your home. I mean, it's it's a different world.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Yeah. And I think at the it it takes a special kind of person to do that. And at the same time, though, it's good that the law enforcement knows that and the general public doesn't. Because that ignorance is bliss is is almost like a shield to them that, yeah, could could be a crutch and put them in danger, but it's almost better that they don't know what could truly be out there. And as you know, cops love to tell stories, they're the best storytellers in the world, and everybody loves stories from cops. And I always say there's three types of stories there's the funny stories, which there's plenty of those, and the bizarre things that happen out there. Then there's the like scary, crazy, intense stories, and then the third type of story is the story that you will never repeat to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

You know, my wife was always big on asking me, Oh, what happened? What'd you do with this? Which it is, and there's legitimately stuff that I've seen and I've experienced that I will not tell her. I will not tell my kids, I won't tell anybody. I there's stuff I won't tell other people who have been in law enforcement because I don't need to repeat that and relive it, and I don't want people to be aware that this is what a human is capable of.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Yeah. Do you think that um that can have anything to do? Let's say somebody else feels the same way that you do, uh, but it's something that they struggle with. Do you think that there's some healing behind that that would have to be done in order to feel better about not talking about it or maybe talking about it?

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Um no, absolutely. It's a person can only carry so much, you know. Um, and and there's there's certain things that you you you

The Stories You Never Repeat

SPEAKER_02 47:21

can kind of keep in the back of your head or put on the back burner, but when you pile too much on there, then it like you said, it it could have some damning effects on you. Um I honestly think there's this idea in law enforcement that you know you you would agree with me, I'm sure that it's it's that, you know, boys club that, oh hey, you can't be weak, you can't be hurt, you can't do this, you can't do that. But when you experience this stuff and see this stuff, you see things that normal people should not have to see and experience things that people shouldn't have to experience, you've got to unload that somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

And you know, and you can't go home and you can't talk to your spouse about it, and you can't talk to your family about it because they're not gonna understand, and nor should they. Um, and that's why I I love what you're doing because you understand that, and you're almost acting as like a therapist to people because you can understand that from your perspective because you've been there and done it, and now you made this forum for people to come to talk. And I think if there needs to be somebody that uh, you know, uh cop or corrections or even military goes and talks to, I think it's better that they talk to somebody who has been there. A buddy of mine that I worked with, he was also in the reserves, but part of his thing in the reserves is he was a counselor for soldiers with PTSD, to where he could understand that because he's been in the service, right? He could understand where they're coming from better and understand how to heal. And definitely I think it's you need to talk to somebody and you need to unload it somewhere, but you needed to unload it with the right person in the right way. And the worst way is to just continually bottle it up or go to a bottle or go to something like that. Because guess what? You you can sit there and drink it off, and when that wears off, you know, I'm not a drinker, I don't drink, so I don't know, but I know a lot of people they'll get stressed and they'll do that to cope. But guess what? When when that alcohol wears off, all the problems are still there.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

And it's that's taken the lives of too many officers, is that bottle because they use that to cope.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's yeah, it's true. Um, okay, Tim. Well, I appreciate you coming on today. I think you have a lot of wisdom, and there's a lot of things that you discuss that I think a lot of others can relate to. Um, do you have any contact information if any of the guests or listeners would like to reach out to you?

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Absolutely. Um, my uh my company is called Tactable Security Solutions. So T-A-C-T-I-B-U-L-L. It's kind of a take on the word tactical, security solutions.com. Um, my email contact is on there. It's tactable ss at gmail.com. Um I I welcome anything. Questions about safety, questions about security, questions about uh mental health or or in that. I I I'm welcome to help anybody because I enjoy training and I enjoy empowering people from that. And like I did talk about, I am trying to put a book together because I I don't it's the criminal justice system from the mental health side is something that a lot of people don't understand. We've all seen the movies, and oh, this person plays crazy to get out of their charges. There's a lengthy process that the average Joe and actually a lot of people in LE and the court systems don't even understand. So I just want to shed light on that and share that with the public. But I, you

Contact Info Final Advice

SPEAKER_02 50:52

know, I I I welcome anybody because I want to empower people.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

You know, I just want to add to what you said about that. Um, I worked in New Mexico and we had a very difficult problem with repeat offenders. And of course, they'd be deemed incompetent. So every time we would arrest them for any charge, they would just be released. It was like a catch-release system for them, and they would be going out there and committing worse felonies every time, you know, just over and over and over. And I feel like that was very frustrating for officers. Um, now to say that the courts didn't understand, I'm gonna have to agree with that in the sense of you see these people coming through your court, you know, every week, every day, and you're still finding them incompetent. At what point do you say, hey, we need to look at this a little further, maybe reassess and decide what we need to do? And it just wasn't happening, at least during my time, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

So I don't think it still has. And I'll I'll be real quick with this story. We had one gentleman who um his crime was the same every time. So you could time it when it started to get hot out, he would throw a rock at a police car. Why? Because it's a guaranteed arrest. And what would happen now? He knew he would never be found competent. So he would be arrested, he'd go through the system, and he could ride out the whole summer with free air conditioning and in a climate-controlled environment and be fed and be taken care of instead of being in the streets. Winter would come, it would start to get cold out. Guess what he would do? Throw a rock at a police car, guaranteed arrest, free blankets, free heat, free food, because he knew they would never convict him. And the last time I dealt with him, it was so bad. I guess he couldn't find a police car. He went to the county jail and he waited outside the Sally port, literally until one pulled out of the Sally port and he threw a rock at their windshield.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

You know what's funny about that is it just goes to show that that area has a lack of resources, and that's just another thing that we can talk about all day long, you know, is the lack of resources in all the jurisdictions, all the states. And this is why, you know, I feel I feel for him. I mean, based on that story, it sounds like he needed help and you know, the resources weren't there for him. So he had to resort to doing something like that in order to get whatever it was that he was looking for.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Yeah, oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

Well, I appreciate your time, Tim. It was really nice talking to you. Um, I really enjoy talking about corrections because it's very rare that I talk about that. I only had a year in corrections because, like I said, it just wasn't for me. Um, but hearing somebody who serves so much time uh behind the walls and all of the stuff that you did, I find it very, very interesting and it's very relatable because you know, law enforcement, we drop off the people, and that's that, you know, we don't really deal with them unless they're back out on the street. And there's so many stories and things that you guys go through that we probably have no clue about. So I appreciate you sharing all of that. If there's one uh piece of advice that you can share with the listeners, what would that be in regard to your experience?

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Um, it's it's actually a two-part piece of advice, and it's something that was taught to me by a longtime police officer is A, there's no Hall of Fame. So don't try to be Superman because you know what? At the end of the day, there's no Hall of Fame because I got hurt and here I am. I don't have my job anymore. I don't have the career path I wanted, but I have the injury left over. And the second thing is don't go looking for something that you don't want to find. Everybody wants to be proactive and everybody wants to get out there. But if you go looking for stuff that you don't want to find, it's gonna find you.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

And yeah, so and just have that balance and finally, like I said, have something. Have something besides your job.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Okay, well, I like that advice. I appreciate it. Uh, for the listeners, as always, be safe. And I look forward to seeing you guys on the next one. Thank you so much, Tim.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

Thank you, Tyra.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Thank you for joining me on Chapter Blue. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow and tag me on social media and share with your friends and fellow officers. If you're interested in joining an episode, I'd love for you to be a part of the conversation. Until next time, stay safe, take care of yourself, and remember, you're never alone in this journey.