The Truth About Stacking Trauma with Brent Jex

The job can break you without warning, then dare you to pretend it didn’t. Brent Jax spent 26 years in law enforcement across gangs, a U.S. Marshals fugitive task force, and narcotics, and he’s honest about what finally happened when stacked trauma, line-of-duty loss, and relentless pressure “came crashing down” in 2014. He shares what it felt like to fear getting help, how stigma around therapy for police officers still shapes decisions, and why white-knuckling it can quietly damage your work, your sleep, and your marriage.

We also get practical about what actually improves first responder mental health. Brent explains how the Utah FOP Foundation built a trusted pathway to counseling by vetting therapists who understand police culture and using anonymous billing so officers can access support without departments watching over their shoulder. We talk about the wellness industry’s growing pains too, including programs that look good on paper but fail the people they claim to serve, and what real leadership looks like when chiefs and sheriffs stop checking boxes and start modeling help-seeking.

From “alpha culture” to empathy, peer intervention, divorce, and police suicide, this conversation goes deep and stays grounded. Brent shares how therapy made him a better cop, how survivor guilt and hindsight can haunt you for years, and why he believes physical, emotional, and spiritual health all matter if we want the numbers to change.

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Contact: Bjex110@icloud.com

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Transcript

Welcome And Career Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome back to another episode of Chapter Blue. Today my guest is Brent Jax, and he joins me all the way from Utah. So thank you for joining me this evening, Brent. Uh Brent has 26 years in law enforcement with most of those years in the federal task force. So if you would tell us some more about your background and what you're doing today.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Within a few years, I went to the uh to the Metro Gang unit. And I was there for five years. Came back for about a one-year stint in patrol, and then I went to the U.S. Marshals Fugitive Task Force for another five years. Came back for another stint in patrol about a year and a half. And then I went to uh narcotics where I where I finished out. And then I uh I retired and stayed on as a reserve, you know, just kind of doing some backgrounds and some general investigations for some smaller agencies, and then uh now I I still reserve, but I'm the executive director for the Utah FOP after spending 12 years as the state president.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Very nice.

Life After Retirement With Utah FOP

SPEAKER_00 1:21

How has it been with the FOP? What's your experience like being in that position?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Busy. Busy. It uh we've got a lot of growth. Um when I took over in 2012, we had about 1,100 members, and now we're at about 5,300 and uh and growing. The the nice thing about the executive director role is that it's I'm as busy as I was as the state president, but now it comes with a paycheck, and so now it, you know, it uh and there's there's a lot of stress being the decision maker. And so, you know, being able to, you know, calls that I used to that I used to make and decisions that I used to make, uh, it's really kind of refreshing to tell them, sorry, you gotta call Kevin, you know, and uh and kind of kind of pass the buck a little bit. So it's been it's been nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Very nice. So uh just to make sure that I'm clear, you are retired from the law enforcement side, but now you're working with the FOP, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Right. And I I do still reserve. I'm a reserve officer um with my local agency just helping them on backgrounds and uh and some more problematic investigations. It's a it's a small agency in northern Utah.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Okay. I have a a question for you that I find kind of interesting. So for those guests that I have that retire and they become reserve officers uh for whatever it is that they do in the reserve role, do you ever feel like it's just really hard to walk away and this is the best option without having to be a full-time employee? You get a little bit of both worlds.

unknown 3:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah. I figured that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I had a I had a hard time closing the closing the door completely.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

I understand. So tell me a little bit about the wellness side. I know we spoke a little bit about that. Tell me how you got into the wellness space for first responders, and so far, what is your experience with that?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Um,

When The Job Finally Breaks You

SPEAKER_01 3:27

so I kind of got thrust into it. Um I I I went down the I went down the drain in 2014. Um I early on in in my career in in the gang unit, uh, we lost a friend of mine. Um he shot and killed. And and I had my first I had my first grappling with that because the kid that shot him, I had him in my custody a couple of days before. And I let some others talk me into releasing him. So that was a that was a hard one. Um and then you know, the just the calls that you respond on and and everything, we had some uh we had some pretty heavy critical incidents. Um and in 2013 I I lost another friend in the line of duty and I was there. And I actually went with them to the hospital and had to make the notifications back that that they had called it, and it started downhill from there. Um May of 2014 we uh went to DC and put them on the on the memorial wall and everything just started to go downhill. And by that time I had I had transferred into narcotics, and we were up at DEA and had a had a pre-big case, and so I was making myself busy. And as the as the case agent, if anybody that's written a Federal Wire affidavit, I mean you know how how time intensive it is. And I kept myself busy and scheduled myself for all the overtime and and everything, and in November of 2014, uh it all came crashing down. And luckily I had some uh some really good friends that and and still had a pretty big stigma on uh on wellness and and therapy and and things, and so once I finally got into into therapy and through the paranoia of it, um like I I realized how close to the other side of the drain that I almost popped out. And so I started looking at things. Um I had my uh one of my vice presidents on the on the FP board, we were we were talking, and I told him that we we need something. There's there's nothing out there, nobody trusts the agency EAP. Um we had a couple of guys that had broken and and went to counseling, and the counselor actually stopped him and said, You gotta stop talking, you're you're freaking me out. And so which you know you can imagine what that does to somebody that that finally uh finally goes to counseling. So

Creating Anonymous Therapy Access

SPEAKER_01 6:23

we we started a foundation, we started the the Utah FOP foundation. Um I did the 501c3 paperwork myself, uh which was challenging in and of itself, but we started uh we started going at that point, and uh we we weren't really sure what we were gonna do. And a friend of mine at the time was starting a company and he gave us the he wrote me two checks for two thousand dollars each at the same time that he's trying to get his company up off the ground. Um and I and I told him, I said, bro, you you're trying to get this up and going. I mean this and he and he said, No, I I believe in this. He was uh he was a military guy. And he uh he wanted to be very successful. Um it was uh Evan Hafer with Black Rifle Coffee Company.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Um I'm familiar.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

So yeah, I I credit Evan with uh getting us up off the off the ground. So we just started developing it and started to vet therapists, and they had to have a a criteria before we would recommend them. And it's just it's taken off. And you know, it's we see our the numbers of visits increase. We it's anonymous billing, so the the therapist all they did was they they sent an invoice to our treasurer that said, Hey, we saw seven officers this week, and the treasurer just mails them a check and that's it. The agencies don't find out the you know, and even though we've even though we've done a lot better with the with the stigma part of me feels like the stigma's just kind of gone underground a little bit, you know, and in some cases underground a lot. We have uh some chiefs and sheriffs who publicly will talk about how much they're for for wellness and uh therapy and saying all the right things to get the the money out of the legislature and then they turn around and and they will trash somebody that they find out goes to goes to therapy. So the stigma's still there and it's just uh it's just taking a new face. And so um you know, it it's been uh it's been a good thing. Um I realize that what I went through that there are thousands and thousands that have gone through a lot worse and that ended up in a worse place than I ended up. Um and even though I almost lost uh uh everything, you know, there are there are cops out there that have that have suffered a lot more than uh than I ever did. Um but it's been really good to I get phone calls and messages from all over the state and sometimes different different parts of the country. And it's uh I'm I'm glad that I can at least be a a resource for you know for cops that are going through things. And I can get uh reached out to by spouses, you know. Hey, you know, my my husband's going through this and I don't know how to I don't know how to help him. And and my wife's right alongside with me, and so it's nice to be able to bring her into it. And because I I don't know what it's like to be the the spouse. I know I know what it's like to be the recipient of the the midnight murder, you know, that uh and but I don't I the hell that we put him through. You know, I I uh I just have a um real soft spot in my heart for uh certain spouses that are that are trying to figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

So I I definitely understand that. Um, you know, a part there is a part of my story where my husband comes into play. And I feel like if I would have stayed in law enforcement the way I was going through my career, it probably would have ended our marriage. And it's not because he did anything wrong, but you know, how much can you put a person through until you take accountability and responsibility that it's you who needs to fix yourself and address the things that you're going through and not treat the person who's there for you like complete shit. And a lot of us don't really look at it that way because we're thinking about ourselves. Oh, well, I had a tough day. I went to all these calls, I saw, you know, this death and I dealt with this and that. And the world just revolves around what we went through at work and we forget that we have to just kind of come back down and meet our family in the middle and be there for them too. And I think that's a really like you're hitting it on the head when it comes to spouses because we we don't really see what it's like from their side. Um, there's also something else that you mentioned about the stigma.

Stigma And Wellness Programs That Fail

SPEAKER_00 11:22

And I talk about this a lot because I feel like we're still trying to break down that wall. In fact, I feel like there is, you know, you have these companies coming out now in the past two to three years. It has been exploding. And it's like people look at this space and they're like, oh, I'm going into the space to make money. There's there's room for me to make money. And there's those who actually want to do it to make a change because those of us like us who have been or seen things that know resources are lacking and we want to make sure those resources are available. Other people are looking at this as a money grab because they know, just like you said, leaders are just going out there, hey, you know, we're all about wellness, they're checking a box, they're getting those funds, and they're getting a program or they're getting into a um collaboration with somebody that's saying this is what we're addressing, but it's not really that. It's the money grab people. Hey, I need this money, we're gonna offer this. And at the end of the day, it's not doing what it should be doing for the officers. And at the end of the day, guess who's losing again? It's it's the officers, and it's just that check the box.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

You know, we uh I for the last several years, uh um, so one of our one of our therapists, and she's actually uh so West Valley City, which is a suburb of Salt Lake, their chief was one of the first in the state, well, the first in the state to bring on a therapist full-time uh on the staff and mandate that all officers go uh go visit Mariah, including her, including the chief. And she said, everybody, me included, everybody's gone. And if you're in ICAC, you're going once a quarter, you know, and and uh she puts on a a critical care conference for you know kind of teach therapists how to how to deal with cops, you know, kind of an intro to it. And every year that that we do it, I give a challenge to the to the group of therapists, it's an auditorium full of therapists, uh, because they can get CLE for it. And I said, if we're doing such a good job, then why are the bad numbers still up? Why are suicide still up? Why are divorce rates still up? We're missing something. And until we figure out what that is, yeah, it's great that that people are going to uh are going to therapy and stuff, but until we can figure that out, then we're missing something, and everything, you know, like you said, is feels like it's that that money grab. Um I but at the same time, I absolutely love seeing administrators that that change their tune. You know, we got one, uh we got a chief and a sheriff in southern Utah that six, seven years ago they were they were in that denial club, you know, it doesn't exist and and everything, and they have come full circle. And they're now two of the biggest proponents of it. And and I love seeing that, you know, and I look at it and I'm like, that is that is leadership. And you know, the more the more cops like that that can get into administrative positions and help help shift that around, the the better off the that we're gonna be. And we might start seeing uh we might start seeing declines in in the bad numbers.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

I would hope so. You know, I I briefly touched on this topic with another guest, and I'm curious about what your perception is, but you have the leaders who, or even people who are creating wellness programs that either money grab or for real purpose, but you have leaders who are looking at this in a way of you're an alpha, you deal with this, you know, you're not if you're not dealing with this and you're not doing what we've always done, then get out of here because you're weak. You know, we're going through a really weird transition because I think there's just this idea around if you can't handle the things that you're going through, and it doesn't always have to be job related, right? I've talked about when we think about wellness in the first responder world, it's it's everything. It's family, it's finances, it's the job, it's called that you've been to, it's stress management, sleep, fitness, health. Like, I mean, it's it's a lot of things. And if you're not doing all of these things to take care of yourself, if you're getting that feedback from your leaders, you know, you got to deal with it. Be tough. You know, that if you're not tough, get out of here. This isn't what we want. That right there is completely wrong because this has nothing to do with, and like I said before, machismo in Spanish, it's like the macho man. It's it's not that. It doesn't change that you're an alpha male. If that's what you want to be, you're gonna be that. If you're already an alpha male, it's not gonna change that. Really, what it is is it's working on yourself so you can continue to be that alpha male that your leaders are wanting you to be. And I think there's just this mix-up and this misunderstanding about how leadership is promoting this to their people. You did touch on that, how a leader will check the box and say, hey, we have this program for wellness, y'all use it, then they use it and then they get in trouble or something comes out of it. And they're like, hey, you know what? Maybe you need to take a psychological test and we need to see if you're even fit for duty. So people don't even want to use that because, oh, my leader finally is providing this, but yet they're still getting reprimanded for using the things that are supposed to be tools to help them do their job. So I think right now it's you're talking about how the sheriff there in Utah took a turn. I'm curious to how that turn took, but what is your opinion on the idea of the alpha male and using wellness and how it gets kind of mixed up, you know, when leadership is promoting this and when they draw back and say, hey, we're we we gotta call you in and see what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Um, two things. One, um, I realized that after I went through therapy, I was a better cop. I mean,

Rethinking Alpha Culture In Policing

SPEAKER_01 19:01

I just I was flat out a better cop um in in every aspect. Uh my cases were put together better. Um, my interactions with with society were better. My interactions with suspects were better. My interviews with suspects were better. And it was because I was able to come to it with a with a little bit of empathy that I didn't that I didn't know existed. You know, and I realized that a lot of the people that that cross our path they're struggling with the with something in life and they're they're broken like we are. Their outlet is drawing them to something that puts them in in contact with us most of the time. They're and then there are others out there that are just absolute societal predators, you know, that uh that need to be separated, you know, one one way or another. Um and and I was able to see that a lot better. Um the the alpha mil thing, the that alpha roll, um I think that's part of what what breaks us. And what I mean by that is I I knew that something was wrong. I I knew that I was breaking inside, and I I felt like a failure. I felt like I was failing because I wasn't living up to to what that that was. I was failing at home, I was failing socially, I was I was failing at church, I was failing everywhere I everywhere I turned. And it was the more I failed, the worse I felt. You know, because here I'm supposed to be this you know, this alpha that is just, you know, that that doesn't get bothered by stuff, and stuff was bothering me. And it was just a um it was just kind of a a perpetual cycle downward. And then I I I saw this thing and it's on a Sigma, a Sigma personality, which is basically an alpha, an alpha that can that can show empathy, you know, and can be um chivalrous and can be polite and can be everything. You still have all that drive. And and I don't I mean it's hard. I I taught at our state academy for 17 years on the side. I saw thousands of cops come through. I trained thousands of cops. I I taught our our uh field training officer program in the state for eight years. Um there's a there's an aspect of training that we that we can do better at um and we can roll it into almost every we can roll it into every piece, you know, we can roll it into tactical traffic stops, we can roll it into building clearing, active shooter, all these, all these things. Um we're we create we create a police officer that we wouldn't want our own families to to interact with. And you know, and and then we're surprised when you know when these interactions go wrong. And and I don't I don't I don't blame the the new officers and and how they come into it. I mean they're they're sucking up, but we're feeding them, you know, and it and it comes from the top. And it one of the biggest allies I made here was um the the director of Post, uh who's been uh an incredible friend of mine. Um he uh I had a conversation with him and he committed to changing the training and to implement some of these things. And in fact, now he's he's going back to school for his second master's on on getting his therapy. Uh he's gonna be a clinician. Um and we went and we uh we did a presentation to the Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice, which was a lot of the district judges, uh prosecutors, you know, just kind of that upper echelon of of criminal justice in the state. And the director of our Department of Corrections um Great guy. And he uh he stood up and he said, I'm gonna tell you my story. And he told the story about how he was starting to have uh he was starting to have flashbacks and he was starting that paranoid route and he was like, I need he goes, I need help. And the room was silent, and I just looked at him and I was like, You are my hero. You know, because usually the governor could have said, Oh, okay, you're not the type of person we want to lead, but uh um luckily the the governor who uh was uh the governor at the time was uh a really good man. You know, I may have disagreed with him on some policies here and there, but he was a he was a really good man. And he was concerned about it and wanted to know how the state could do a better a better job. And he assigned the the DPS commissioner to you know take a better stance on it. And and our DPS does a really good job on the wellness front. Um and I the more leaders that will come out there and tell their story and let their let their officers know that it's okay to be broken. And my uh my therapist, she uh there's a there's a concept called Kitsugi. And I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's that it's the Japanese art and where they take broken art and they mend it with gold. And so you have all these gold veins that that come up through it, and it increases the like they're they're really valuable, they're really intrinsic. Um, and it's basically the concept that uh when you're when you're healed, you're better and stronger than before. And so that that mentality, um, and I think if we can shift what we look at as as alpha and and either incorporate that that it's okay to be broken. I mean, we don't we don't ridicule anybody for breaking a bone. You know, we I I ruptured my back in a in a training accident and I didn't get any grief or oh you blew a disc, you know, you're weak. You well, I don't know, maybe they said I didn't uh um but you know it's that that concept that we're uh and I don't know why we do it. You know, I don't know why the I don't know why the stigma's there. I don't know if it has to do with the an overlay of the you know wellness at large or or things like that. I mean you you've probably done a lot more studying on that than than I have, but I know that regardless of where we're at, we can always do better and we can we can always improve and we we have to.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah. You know, talking about empathy, I can really relate to what you're saying because

Empathy, Dark Humor, And Home Life

SPEAKER_00 26:09

number one, I think as an officer, there is going to be a time and a place or a call that we go to where we realize, hey, I think something's wrong with me because I had that epiphany, I guess you can call it. Um, there was a, it was during COVID and there was a suicide. A 11-year-old boy shot himself with his dad's gun out in the middle of a field. And I remember going to that call and thinking, you know, I'm seeing this child and what he did, I don't know what he was going through. And I had an 11-year-old at home. And after this call was done, I went to the next call and the next call and the next call. And then I got home and I thought, something's wrong with me because who who can really just function and continue working throughout their day after seeing something like that? And then me going home knowing I have an 11-year-old who's also going through struggles with COVID and being home and away from his friends and and not think about it. You know, I think that was my epiphany, like, hey, I think something's wrong with me. And ever since I've left law enforcement, I will say that it's been a work in progress, but that empathy side of me, I had to work on it. It's like somewhere down the road, you start to lose that because you're just so accustomed to seeing all of these things that you kind of lose it and you don't really realize it until you have that break where you're you're thinking, okay, I'm not normal. This is not normal. And what I feel we've done in law enforcement is we've kind of normalized that. And what do we do? We say, oh yeah, we joke about it, we have dark humor, and this is how we deal with it. But in reality, it we shouldn't be losing those things because that's what makes us human. So, of course, I want to go into the suicide and divorce side of things in law enforcement because I feel like this is an aspect that leaders should be emphasizing on hey, take care of yourself because this is kind of what's going to overflow into your life outside of work. And if not, this this leads to divorce, this leads to suicide. Of course, we know that divorce rates are very high in law enforcement for a number of reasons, but I feel like this is just one of those topics that nobody really talks about. I mean, empathy is huge and we just kind of ignore it and think we're good. We all understand each other. This is that brotherhood where we can joke about what we just saw, and the only people that get it is those people. You go home and you say that same joke to your spouse, they're gonna look at you like, what are you talking about? That is not funny, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah, you know, I uh I uh there's a uh um on the on the empathy empathy side, um, I and it was really the the thing that kind of got me starting to tell my story. And you know, when I when I first started going to therapy and I was I was really paranoid about it, you know, I it it took it took me forever to go through the door the first day. And um uh friend of mine, we were after one of our state FLP meetings, we were kind of standing off to the side and and he knew that I was going to that I was going to therapy. He was like one of two people outside of my wife that knew. And uh he was like, you know, how's it going? And everything. I'm like, uh, it's it's going good, and you know, we're kind of doing this and this. And all of a sudden, I hear over my shoulder a voice that said, You're going to therapy. And I knew whose voice it was, and it was the last person in the world that that I wanted to know. You know, you want to talk about Alpha? This guy was Alpha. I mean, he was the he was the uh team leader of our state SWAT team. Uh he was, you know, everything, you know, bodybuilding, everything and everything. I mean, just that, just that guy. And I'm like, and I and I looked at my buddy and I'm like, well, here we go. And I looked back and I went, Yeah, I am. And he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, Good. Best thing you can do. He goes, It's done wonders for me. And as stupid as it is, I d I didn't need his permission or I didn't think so. But when he said that it was okay, all of a sudden I'm like, okay, maybe I'm maybe I'm hiding out for nothing. You know, maybe I'm maybe I'm concealing this, maybe I'm maybe I'm overthinking it. And I started to dabble in in sharing, which the more I shared, the more empathy uh the more empathy I was able to have. And it, you know, and it led to uh you know, even even recently, and and I realized that uh it's never over. You know, and uh I mean so about 17 years ago our uh

Buried Trauma And The Cost Of Silence

SPEAKER_01 31:28

our task force went on uh to help on a missing child and our team found her in uh in the basement of an apartment and she'd been raped and murdered. And uh you know she was uh she was seven and she was a she was wearing a nightgown that my daughter had the same nightgown, and my daughter was seven. And the uh I mean it was one of those things where I couldn't understand why I I hated the smell of Thai food. And just until recently it it dawned on me that I I pushed that incident down so hard and so far that my first round through therapy we didn't even cover it. And uh it it found its way out a couple months ago. And all I could all I could do that night after we, I mean, we went and we found the we went and found the suspect. Um the range of emotions that night. I mean, I it was the only time in my career that if somebody would have said, let's just take him out West and put a bullet in his head, I would have said, I'll drive. No, hey, you know, let's think about it. Like it was it was that bad. And all I could do when I got home was just take her and hold, you know, for a couple hours. And uh my wife came in to to check on me, and I couldn't I couldn't see anything. I mean, how do you how do you tell your your wife the the scene you just went on? And so you know, and it and it leaves them in the dark, but um like it's a it's a hard profession and at the same time it's completely rewarding. And uh you know, I I look at the the divorce traits and I I I understand why. I mean it doesn't make it it doesn't make it good, it doesn't make it uh um something that we shouldn't uh that we shouldn't try and and reduce, but I but I understand why. And it's because my I keep telling people that my wife should have uh she should have bothered me or slipped my throat in the middle of the night, and there wouldn't be a jury in the world that would have convicted her. You know, and and I think our our spouses in that in that boat. Uh we're we're still a family because of her. And uh there's not a day goes by that that that I'm not grateful for that. Um I think if she would have been um less invested in me, she would have she would have pumped smoke, you know, months before. Um but I I asked my my friend who's the the director of post how many discipline cases he would he would attribute to uh to job-related trauma. And he said probably 85%. You know, 85% of the destructive behaviors that were landing guys in front of post council um probably could have been intercepted, had the agencies and had and look, it I'll even say this, it's not even all on the agency. I mean, we our profession has done a poor job of teaching us how to intervene in each other's lives like that. You know, we just for all the training that we do, and that is one thing that we are horrible at. And you know, but how many of those uh how many of those professions could have been saved? You know, how many how many marriages could have been saved, how many how many families I mean just from early intervention. And look, I'm not saying that that uh every marriage gets saved and every career gets saved, but I think there are a number of them that that uh that could if the intervention was early enough. You know, and I you know, I I throw myself into that mix. You know, I I wasn't too far off from from losing both. And luckily I had some friends that were able to to get through and to intervene and that said the things that I needed to hear to to realize um what I was feeling on the inside was manifesting itself on the outside. You know, I thought the the nightmares, the panic attacks, the anxiety attacks, everything, I thought I was keeping it all I thought I was keeping it all pretty concealed. And and it turns out I wasn't. You know, and that the place that I felt safest was at work, and that nobody there would have would see it, and they saw it all, they just didn't know how to bring it up.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Right. You know, I wanna go back to what you said in the beginning of the podcast, and you said that you lost one of your friends in the line of duty, and I'm sure that was very, very difficult to stick with, especially knowing that you let a you know suspect go and you probably felt like there was some guilt there. And I'm curious, how did you work through that? I mean, what what did you do to deal with that guilt that you were feeling?

Survivor Guilt And Hindsight Traps

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Um, it it took a while. I mean, I I was angry about it for about 10 years. Um and it I actually carried it with me. So that happened in 2002, and I carried it with me all the way through uh 2014. Wow. And as we were going going through it, I mean I was I was angry at the detectives that I listened to, you know, that were kind of downplaying it. And there were there was something inside me that was gnawing at me that was saying, Don't let this kid go. Um, we had suspected that he was involved in multiple armor robberies. Um my uh my therapist at the time, he he helped me see that uh and and here's what I learned that I've been able to share with a lot of people is that um hindsight is a very unfair lens to judge anything through. And that you know, a maze is easiest to solve when you start at the end and work your way back. And what we knew at the time, despite the you know, that tingling spidey sense is improbable cause and we flat out lacked enough to be able to hold on to them at the time. And that that hindsight, um I think that's where we do our most damage is we were really good at the coulda woulda shulda game. Um and it's probably one of the most valuable pieces of information that that I learned was that um that it would have been different had he said that he was gonna that he was gonna find Ron and kill him, and I said, Well, I don't think you're going to and you know and cut him loose and then it and then it happens, you know, which which wasn't the case. Um it doesn't change the fact that uh that I still feel the the guilt of it but I decided to turn it into learning opportunities, you know, and that um if I could have gone if I could have gone back on it, uh even though we didn't have enough to hold them, I mean I'd have held on to them just a little bit longer. You know, it may have been, okay, I'll take these off once we get back into the school, once into the once we're into the the principal's office or whatever, he was a senior. Um but I was talked into cutting him loose there in the parking lot and he I mean 17-year-old Jackrabbit and uh and he was gone and you know um so it's uh I like I understand the the survivor guilt, you know, the um having a having a hand whether you know whether it's it's uh a justified perception or not. I I know what it's like to go through that. And it sucks. I mean it just it sucks. And even even looking at it through the new lens, it still sucks. You know, there's there's nothing there's nothing good about it. Um but I also can't go back and undo it. And um it's learning from and moving on.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

I can relate also to you on that survivor's guilt, not so much my situation being the same, but I think in law enforcement, um in my career, it's also maybe a little bit different than yours, but it's also taking accountability for you know the situation as a whole. If we're holding ourselves guilty for something, the best route to go is learning. And I actually learned this being out of law enforcement, all these body cameras that circulate the internet. It's so hard to look at a body camera and say, I can't believe that the officer did that. It's hard, you know, because we've been there, we've done that, and we're wondering, what the hell are you doing? Like, why did you do that? So I will sit here and force myself, if I'm feeling that way, to watch a body camera over and over and over and over until I can come to an educated conclusion to learn rather than to do that hindsight 2020 and just judge everything that I'm seeing. And on top of that, we we think about okay, we're not seeing the whole situation, we don't know everything. But it's hard not to do that. So I took that, what you're saying, taking it taking it in as a learning experience. And I went through ideas in my career where I felt like I had some guilt on things that I should have done better, that maybe I could have done better. And why did I feel that way? And I tried to adapt that into a learning situation so that I could share that with other people, you know, who are in leadership positions that may have been in a similar situation and hope that they can learn because that right there is so important, is we hold on to these things. It affects us for so long. And there can be some type of learning that we can do from it. Doesn't mean that it's gonna make us feel better, but it's going to benefit others around us and benefit ourselves in some way because it's not gonna keep us weighed down as much as it would if we didn't learn from it. So I think that's really important. Um, I wanted to talk to you about uh the memorial wall. I know you mentioned that your friend was put on there. Did you see the most

Police Suicide And The Memorial Wall

SPEAKER_00 42:43

recent update about um officers who have committed suicide are now going to be introduced into the memorial wall?

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

I think that that is it's sad. It's great all in one, but I feel like that is so important because the topic we haven't really discussed yet is suicide in law enforcement because it's been at an all-time high.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

I so I I never got to the point that I was suicidal, but I got to the point that I understood it. And where I my my perceptions that I had about it were were completely off. Um that it's it's not what I thought it thought it was. Um, and I've had uh I had a couple of friends that uh that I worked with that killed themselves. And the the first, I mean, it caught everybody off guard. I mean, this guy was charismatic. He we taught with him at the academy. Everybody loved him. I mean, he was just he was an awesome cop. He was a military guy, and uh he he killed himself. He he drove over to Wyoming um so that none of us would have to find him and uh and did it and that that rocked us. Um and then it happened uh a couple of other times. Um and with that, I was I was talking to the uh the uh now president of um uh uh Blue Suicide. Um oh man, this is uh I'm blanking on her name. And and we were talking about it, and she you know, she asked how I felt about it. And I honestly told her, I said, I don't know. I said, I am so glad that the families are getting the PSOB benefits. Um I'm fully aware that the that the job is is breaking us, and and my own situation that had it gone on another few months, I probably would have been there too. And at the same time, I'm trying to I'm trying to reconcile with um going on the wall next to Derek and Ron and were both shot and killed in line of duty. And I don't know how to rectify that. You know, I'm I'm glad that the benefits there. I'm Glad that there's an awareness. And I don't I don't know how to come to terms with them sharing lost space. And I I I don't know. I I want to get there. I just don't know how.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, it's understandable. And you know what? I'm actually glad that you were able to share that perspective with me because I don't think that a lot of people would probably share that and be honest about it because they might feel a certain way. I had a guest whose um dad was in New York PD for, I want to say over 30 years. And in his, I think he was in his 70s, he ended up committing suicide. Nobody knows why. Um obviously this affects her in a different way, but there's always this other perspective. And that's very, very understandable where you're coming from. And I completely understand how that can be conflicting. Uh I want to say that I feel I feel happy about it, but there's also this sadness because you just like you said, I don't understand the suicide part of law enforcement. Um, I went through my own journey and I've felt that way during my career, but it really didn't have to do directly with my career. It was more my family aspect. And I felt like I was hitting rock bottom with that side of things. So, you know, if I were to have taken my life because of those reasons, I can see how that's conflicting because it's like your friend died in the line of duty, and here I am struggling with my family stuff. And just because I was a police officer, you know, I'm gonna be put on the wall for for something that I was dealing with internally. Um when it comes to the friend that you did lose, uh did you keep in touch with their family? Um, is there any connections that you still carry with with your friend?

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Yeah, um his uh his uh his widow, um she remarried a guy that actually works with my wife. Okay and he's he's absolutely remarkable. I mean, he uh I I've seen it in other in other cases where the you know the widow gets remarried and the new spouse comes in and it's like okay, this is my family now type thing. And Chad came in and he was just absolutely amazing. To the point to where it's like he's he's one of us. You know, it's like we pulled him into the into the family. Um Chante's the uh she actually got the uh Utah chapter of Cops, Concerns of Police Survivors up and going. Uh we didn't have it here before Derek was killed. Um and she and I made her the uh communications director, and we actually have our uh our FOP member of the year that I named the Derrick Johnson Award. Um Derek served on his uh on his local board, and I mean he was just his his personality and everything. I mean he was just this uh his bubbly little ball of bubbly ball of fire that uh he was a lot of fun to to work with when we were on the task force together. Um and so keeping in touch with him and and keeping that uh uh in fact every time we every time we lose an honest or Shantae goes with me to the to the scene or to the to the hospital or to the um and it's hard for her and therapeutic at the same time you know and it's been it's been eleven years since uh since Derek was killed and she's been there in every single one of and it's uh and it helps me too, you know. Um and I and something along those lines I remember the so Ron was killed uh November 18th, 2002 and we always say we never forget and about 13 years later, November 18th, I came and went and I forgot and I felt like garbage you know and I I I it I struggled with it You know, I and I I look at uh I look at at Derek and September 1st of every year. I'm like I could I put it on the calendar, you know, and make sure I don't I don't forget it because I d and and I realized that through it all in fact Chante said this to me. Um you think it's a realistic expectation to never forget? And I looked at her and I said, Well what do you mean? She goes, Well look, I she goes, I was married to him, I'm I'm never gonna forget. But do you think it's a realistic, realistic expectation for the for the community to never forget? And she goes, I I want you to remember how he lived, not not how he died. And that gave me some uh some of the that opening. And one of the reasons why we decided to create the honor there, the award in his name so that it was the FLP member that was a cop like Derek was a cop, not making sure that September 1st that that we were holding some sort of memorial. Um I I think a lot of the a lot of the damage that we do not a lot, but part of the damage that we do to ourselves is self-inflicted. You know, through our through our expectations, through our through our viewpoints. And and that's what I think has to change. And that's why I I love the work that uh that you do on this. Um because if it makes a difference to just one one cop or or one family, I mean, then all that work that you put into it is totally worth it.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

I agree. Thank you for that. Uh, I do think that the podcast, especially your story, your perspective, it it definitely brings a lot to the table. Um, thank you for sharing all of what you have shared today. Because I think that for the most part, a lot of people are afraid to come forward and give an honest opinion about certain things, or even to talk about certain things that you've talked about today. And I know that there's someone out there who is gonna listen to this and they're gonna be like, holy shit, like I can relate to that guy. I get it. And there's someone out there who is thinking like me or feeling like me, or who went through what I went through. And you sharing what you've done for yourself to help you get through certain things, or even hearing what you've done, you know, because of what you've been through and where the FOP program, just everything you've done since you've experienced trauma or something in your career, your life. I I think it's fantastic. You've done a great job. I do want to ask you one thing about the Chantel, Shante, what did you say her name is? Shantae. Uh, could you tell me a little bit more about the program that she has?

SPEAKER_01 52:56

The all of the concerns of police survivors?

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Um, so the so the national concerns of police survivors was started in 1984 as a kind

COPS Support And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 53:08

of a branch off of the uh FOP Auxiliary. And the FOP started the National Memorial Service in Washington, DC in 1982, and it started with like 182 people in attendance. Um and they recognized that there needed to be a specific uh a specific function for the the families and co-workers of the of the fallen officer. And so they started the concerns of police survivors and then spread it into state chapters, and what they do is every time there's a fallen officer, um they uh they help get the family back to DC for the memorial. And the candlelight vigil that happens in DC. So the the memorial service on the Capitol Lawn is an FOP event. The candlelight vigil that happens at the Washington Monument uh is a cops event. And the the cops in the FOP are joined at the hip. Uh we have our we have our foundation gala uh coming up next Saturday, and we do that in conjunction with cops. Um so that they have the we use it as to raise the money to um pay for officers treatment, and they use it as the fundraiser to get uh we we have an officer from Utah that was killed last year that um getting his small department and his family to DC. And so we help cops with with that event.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Okay. I wanted to make sure that we discussed that just in case there are officers or listeners out there who are not aware or not familiar. I know there's a lot of new officers. I don't learn about this in my academy or when I first get into law enforcement. Um, I did serve on the honor guard, so I'm kind of familiar, but not everybody does that. So the more information that they have and the understanding that they have, I feel like the more involved that they can be. And I think it's important. Uh we are running out of time, but I wanted to ask you if there's any listeners that want to make contact with you, um, maybe get some information on anything that you shared today, is there a way that they can reach out?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Yeah, um you can uh you can email me at bjex110 at iCloud.com. Um, you can hit me up on uh on Facebook or Instagram. Um I'm I'm less good about checking my messages on on there, but I eventually do every every couple of days or so. So yeah, I'm more than uh more than happy to help where I can.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

And before we end the podcast, is there one tip or one thing that you would like to share with the listeners over your career that you've learned that you find or found to be really important?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yeah. Um I miss I underestimated the pressure and power of the devil in the stuff that we see and the way that we deal with it. And the uh I so Lieutenant Lieutenant Colonel Grossman, Dave Grossman, who wrote On Combat and On Killing, he has two books, um, and it's on spiritual combat and on spiritual warfare. And I believe that he correctly identifies the missing piece that is keeping the bad numbers high. And I believe that's for spiritual connection. I mean, we physical is important, emotional is important, spiritual is important, and you take any one of those away and you're setting yourself up. And we are uh we owe it to ourselves to to stay tethered spiritually, and that uh that'll give us a resource that I um that I walked away from a couple of times in my life, and I wish I wouldn't have because it always preceded um some of the most difficult things that I encountered.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Well, thank you for sharing that. I think that's great, a great tip, and I agree as well. Um, I know there's a lot of people out there who don't focus on their spirituality or it doesn't have to be anything in particular, as long as they have a belief and they focus on that and they put some time and effort into it. I do think it makes a difference. Uh, Brent, thank you so much for joining me today. I have appreciated our conversation and everything that you've added to the podcast. I hope the listeners have gotten a lot of value from this episode. I know I have, and I appreciate your time and for being on the podcast and just signing up and making sure that you can share your message and what you found to be important for the listeners to take away from this. Uh, is there anything else you'd like to add before we end today?

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Nope, I'm good. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Thank you to my listeners. Thank you guys for your continued support. As always, stay safe and I will see you on the next one. Thank you for joining me on Chapter Blue. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow and tag me on social media and share with your friends and fellow officers. If you're interested in joining an episode, I'd love for you to be a part of the conversation. Until next time, stay safe, take care of yourself, and remember, you're never alone in this journey.